Session 178: Taking Action & Taking Care of Ourselves

Session 178: Taking Action & Taking Care of Ourselves

Dr. Joy: Hey, y'all! Thanks so much for joining me for Session 178 of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. The last couple of months have been stressful to say the least and it feels like tension is mounting as we get closer to Election Day. To help try and make sense of what's been happening, I'm joined today by my colleague and soror, Dr. Riana Elyse Anderson.

Dr. Anderson is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Health Behavior and Health Education at the University of Michigan School of Public Health. She earned her PhD in Clinical and Community Psychology at the University of Virginia, and completed a Clinical and Community Psychology residency at Yale University School of Medicine, and a Fellowship in Applied Psychology at the University of Pennsylvania.

Dr. Anderson is the developer and director of the EMBRace intervention. EMBRace stands for Engaging, Managing, and Bonding through Race, and she loves to translate her work for a variety of audiences–particularly those whom she serves in the community–via blogs, video and literary articles. Finally, Dr. Anderson was born in, raised for, and returned to Detroit and is becoming increasingly addicted to cake pops.

Dr. Anderson and I discussed the impact that the stress of the past couple of months has had on us, offered some perspective about why many of us may feel exhausted with the current political climate, and offered some tips on how to take care of ourselves so that we can keep going. If something resonates with you during our chat, please share with us on social media using the hashtag #TBGinSession. Here's our conversation.

Dr. Joy: Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Anderson.

Dr. Anderson: It is my pleasure. Thank you for having me, Dr. Joy.

Dr. Joy: Very, very excited to have you here. Can you start by telling us some more about your work with the EMBRace program?

Dr. Anderson: Sure. The thought is that black families are having “the talk” all the time. They're thinking about what to say when their kid is stopped by a police officer, when they go into a grocery store. They're having these conversations on the talk all the time and what EMBRace is, is the opportunity for these black families to engage in their expertise already–having the talk–with some therapeutic strategies mixed in there as well. So how can we as therapists provide treatment around racially specific stuff like racism and discrimination? And how do we support black families who are already doing that very hard task in the families, with therapeutic strategies?

Dr. Joy: I love that. And I am curious to hear, has your work changed at all, given the pandemic? Let’s just say, not “has it changed,” let’s just say how has it changed given the pandemic?

Dr. Anderson: Well, here's what's really fun about universities. You can’t just do whatever the heck you want to do, which is great. We're trying to make sure that people are safe and healthy. It took us about a year to get the university's blessings to do the work that we wanted to do, because we're working with human participants so we want to make sure that they're safe and healthy and well. We got a thumb up on like March 3, we were about to go into the community like March 16 and then the university was like, “No, sis. There's COVID so you can't do an *[inaudible 0:06:25] in the fear community.” So our project got shut down before we were even able to go out into the community in Detroit to do the work.

But as we've been talking with our community partners recently, we've had to think about two things. One, in January, is there a way that we can actually flip this into an online service? What will it look like from a computer or on Zoom to do this work? And then, two, given that our families are currently struggling–like they are going through a lot, they're seeing so much–how can we support them in other ways? We've done town halls, we've done opportunities to have youth call in for like office hours. But we've tried to be really thoughtful and mindful about when people need work in the moment, like, how do we provide services? How do we meet them in their time of need? That's definitely what's been different for us right now.

Dr. Joy: Yeah. And I would imagine as you continue to do the work, like even some of the content will likely shift.

Dr. Anderson: Absolutely.

Dr. Joy: From the continuing needs that the community is experiencing.

Dr. Anderson: Absolutely. We intend to do a lot of examples that we'll bring in but we have a lot of space for those current events and for those more modern instances that are happening. Unfortunately, the names, the hashtag, those things can be replaced frequently because of just how much disadvantage and disrespect and dehumanization we see. So, you're right, we do have to think about that frequently but we also offer plenty of opportunities for the youth and their families to tell us what it is that they see in real time.

Dr. Joy: Yeah, so we've already talked about just the incredible amount of stressors that people are experiencing related to the pandemic, but also related to continuing acts of racism and violence. And so I'm curious, can you just talk a little bit about the responses that people are experiencing related to stress? I know something that often comes up in the Therapy for Black Girls community is people really just kind of feeling numb to everything that's going on. Can you talk about some of those common reactions to stress?

Dr. Anderson: Yeah, I'd certainly talk about what numbness is and what some people see as the antithesis to that of anger. *0:08:36 Fortunately(?), a lot of the media that would ask me questions about what protests looked like during the summer would use this term, and to use it out of place, of this idea that “riots or protests were all about just anger and rage.” And in the first place, even if it were, that's not so bad, right? It's good to feel something. But, two, is it not expected to feel frustration for being dehumanized and for being discarded? Is it not appropriate?

In fact, to your point, if we don't want to feel numb, what would you expect us to feel in this moment? How would you want us to react to someone who had just lost their life after eight minutes and 46 seconds of being knelt on, on national TV? Like how do you think I should react and respond?

If anything, the numbness makes me more nervous than anything else. I want anger, I want frustration, I want rage, I want to see you react because numbness, to me, means that you're habituated. That's what when we're thinking about stress, a very common response is to not feel anything because over time you expect it. You know what's coming. And if we don't feel anger, frustration, sadness, rage, even if it comes frequently, then that means that we anticipate those types of outcomes. We anticipate feeling that dehumanization and that is more scary to me, Dr. Joy.

Dr. Joy: Mm hmm. Yeah, and I wonder if it also speaks to (again, rightfully so) just feelings of hopelessness. Like what can even be done in this moment?

Dr. Anderson: Right. Absolutely.

Dr. Joy: I know your work is related to kind of having the talk, like you said, and all the race- related stress and trauma that people experience. And another hot conversation this summer and leading into the fall has been everything related to Breonna Taylor. And it feels like particularly black women have really, really felt strongly about what happened to her, her being killed by police officers, but also now we're still unsure about what's going to happen even in a court case, right? Like, are the officers going to be charged? What's going to happen with the grand jury? And so I think that that felt like a double whammy. Well, maybe not even double because we're probably past two strikes, right? But I think recently, for black women, the news related to the grand jury felt like yet another blow and I saw a lot of people just talking about feeling like checked out and just really disillusioned with the whole process.

Dr. Anderson: Yes, there's really not even anything to add. I mean, you said it beautifully in that even when there is anticipation or hope, we've seen time and time again the dashing of that and what it means to be hopeful as a black person in the United States, and particularly as a black woman where generationally, historically, there have been so many moments where our mere humanity has been just washed away. It has been minimized, it has been depreciated by people who “wield more power.” It feels like, to your point, we're now in the fifth or sixth of these pandemics or challenging issues that are going on right now.

But to understand that property was more valuable than Breonna’s life, to understand that the bullets that missed her had more of an impact than the bullets that entered her. Those are the things that, as a black woman certainly, make us question what is our value? What is our worth? Does it even matter to do some of the empowering or the lifesaving things that we would be engaging in? Those are the questions with respect to hopelessness that must be ringing in the minds of those who are living in this America.

Dr. Joy: Mm hmm. And do you have any suggestions for how, given that backdrop, we can still do some of the lifesaving things? I know hopelessness is a classic symptom of things like depression, right? And so we also know that to keep going, we have to try to fight against that even when it feels hard. What kinds of suggestions or strategies might you have for people who maybe are in that space?

Dr. Anderson: Yeah. You know, there are so many examples of black women who have changed the course of history. Even right now as we're witnessing Kamala’s ascent as a candidate, as a viable candidate for the vice presidency, to understand that while there is challenge… Which is the human condition, and I'm certainly not making an excuse for what seems to be a disproportionate challenge that black people face. But to understand that there is challenge and great opportunity.

To know that three black women created a movement that now has absolutely changed the face of corporate America, has changed the political landscape of this year, that caused a football player to kneel for years who has now changed what advocacy looks like in the athletic space. To know that the Black Lives Matter movement (again, created by three black women) has made such a difference in the world, is something that we can point to right now as real time change. To know that Bree Newsome climbed a flagpole to take down a confederate flag in real time. Like, we are watching these role models and we have them now.

We have historical women as well that we can look to that have been paving pathways for generations, for centuries, who have been matriarchs in our family, who are the ancestors who we call upon. These are the women who not only have, but continue to change the world. I understand that we are grieving Breonna Taylor and I do say her name as often as I possibly can across every platform that I possibly can. We cannot mistake that that was injustice that led to both her murder and her not being justified in death. So we are witnessing an injustice and I don't want to miss that. We do, however, see so many examples of black women who are changing and have changed the world that we would be remiss to not see the grave impact that we have had on our community and our history.

Dr. Joy: Mm hmm. I'm glad you shared that because I think we often talk about (in working with clients and in working with groups) that one of the ways you can kind of combat hopelessness is to look at the small change that you can have in your area, right? I think we see things like running for an elected office as like, “Oh, I don't feel like I could do that.” But is there something small in your community, in your family, that you can do that goes towards making a difference?

Dr. Anderson: Oh, my goodness. To me, I probably skipped over that because it seems so obvious that black women make such an impact on their communities, their families, their friend circles. I think one of the challenges is believing that we have to be all things for all people all the time. But knowing just how much black women were faced with… During the summer in particular, there were times when I was engaging with black women in the community and we talked a lot about the mask and what that mask represents, of having to wear a physical one that's covering up the one we already wear on the daily that requires this unmasking time and time again to really get at what is troubling them.

But if we look at it from that strength space lens and from the perspective of black woman have been holding down their community, their friend circles, their family, for so long, it almost goes without saying, to me, just how valuable each of those daily lived experiences are to the fabric of the community. And when all of those pieces of fabric interweave, that's where we see strength, right? It's not one woman. And even though I named single examples, it's not just one woman. It's like, what do we do when all of those pieces of fabric weave together? That's the strength, that's that tough resilient matter that comes together as a collective block. We do this. This is who we are.

But also being mindful that we are deserving of care and we are deserving of respite and rest and love. And when we have to take those masks off, just to underscore, Dr. Joy, that's what we're here for. Like, that's what our job is: to listen to and support those black women who often have to carry so much on their shoulders.

Dr. Joy: Mm hmm. Yeah, and you know, Dr. Anderson, as I hear you talk, I feel like that is such a beautiful sentiment and it is historically who we are as black women. But I have also just been hearing sisters say, “I'm tired.” Like, I know that this is what we do, this is how we show up, we try to save ourselves and a byproduct is other people being saved, but sisters are tired.

Dr. Anderson: Yeah, absolutely and rightfully so. Like how do you care for self, others, home, community, church? Like how do you do all that during a time when there is no collective rest? I feel guilty when I'm taking a break from “work” because it's me choosing just not to open my computer, right? I'm like, I'm not going to do work today. But it's right there. The computer is right there, all I have to do is open it up. All I have to do is pick up that phone. So when we're in spaces where we don't even have the 15-minute commute anymore or that plane to get on, we don't have the built-in baked-in reasons to rest or to vacation anymore, that is really challenging to the mind as well, that you don't even feel like you can. But it's important for us all to recognize that that rest only makes us stronger, only makes us better.

Dr. Joy: Mm hmm. Yeah, and I think that that is the power of the collective, too. That it is a circular kind of thing, that there is space for you to take a rest because somebody else can pick up your slack, right? I think remembering that is an important piece of the puzzle as well.

Dr. Anderson: Yes.

Dr. Joy: Yeah. Dr. Anderson, because we've referenced this summer a lot, the death of George Floyd, it really feels like, was a turning point for a lot of people. And honestly, I'm still not really sure. I mean, it was clearly incredibly horrific and tragic, it didn't feel like anything that we hadn't seen before in terms of people violently murdering black people. What do you think was the tipping point for people this summer that that case really kind of woke a lot of people up, so to speak?

Dr. Anderson: Yeah. I've thankfully been able to think about this a few times and I think there are lots of very plausible explanations. The one that I've come up with for myself is that you're living in a time where there are sirens around you, there are people that you know who are passing who otherwise would have been there. These are the gatekeepers, the narrative keepers, the people in our communities who we love and trust, and they are no longer with us. The hairdressers, the church mothers, like these are the people who are now gone. And you think to yourself, this is the worst thing that can happen.

And in March and early April, when those numbers were starting to come in, there was a collective thought from Americans that, wow, we are all in this together. And then in late April, as the numbers started showing the racial disparities, the thought was, “Oh, this happens to those people. Oh, okay.” This idea that those numbers didn't equally pan out across populations, across cities, that now it's an us and them issue. And if they would just… If they would just stay out of those stores, if they just wouldn't talk to each other, then they would not catch this. So then it became an us versus them issue.

So as black people were suffering in this way and now we've lost the sense of unity and global kind of connection, now we're facing a story in early May of how the mental health impact has just run rampant within the black community. That we’re experiencing stress, anxiety and depression at three times the rate of other groups, and from us just a few months before that. So we're now tripling our rates to ourselves and others.

At this point, you're now thinking this is the worst that could possibly happen. Nothing could be worse than this. And I think what happened with George Floyd, so we're talking May 24 and May 25. May 24, you're seeing the story of Christian and Amy Cooper pop up and you're like, wow! In the midst of all of this, of all the things happening in New York of all the places (one of the epicenters) you see a white woman falsely accuse a black man of harassment and “disrespect.” So you're seeing these things and you're kind of like, oh, I can't believe the audacity of this person at this time.

And then the next day, you're watching the news and the fear that you had of why Amy Cooper even called the police on Christian Cooper, came in front of our eyes with George Floyd. George Floyd being knelt upon by this person who did not care that he had defeated COVID, who did not care that he had lived a life where he was trying to find himself, trying to find his best self by moving to Minneapolis. He had done all these things to avoid this very outcome that Amy Cooper had called on him for, that all these cases that we've seen time and time (again, to your point) historically have happened. We've seen this before and yet this is a time now where the unraveling of the collective “we” became most evident. That it took two months for us to get to this point but that we were no longer unified. There was no America: this was a false sense of unity in this United States of America. It has always been an us versus them and on May 25 that became incredibly clear.

Dr. Joy: Mm Hmm. Yeah, it wasn't and I think that that has been the disconnect for a lot of black people. Is that it feels like there was all this energy around like white people waking up to this thing and we had always been aware of it. And so I think it left people feeling kind of confused as to what happened here. Like, this is what we have been talking about.

Dr. Anderson: Right, that we have noticed this. We have the talk, we have a whole socialization process related to this and y'all are just coming aware. But the one thing about that, Dr. Joy, that I make sure to mention is that people are really looking for a three-second solution to a 300+ year problem. Like they are really trying to ask, what is the one book that I can read? What is the one group that I can join? What is the one thing that I can do to absolve America? Or to absolve me, I think is what people are saying, right? To absolve me of this feeling of racial trepidation and the problem.

And there is no one book. There's no one bias training, there's no one any of these things because shortly thereafter, we saw this repeat itself in Atlanta. Like there's no one thing that we can do to rectify this problem but it is a thought. Like there's a thought that America is awakening to this. I would just add that it is going to take a sustained effort to get there and I am not as optimistic as some of the folks were this summer, who thought we were just going to rid ourselves of it very quickly.

Dr. Joy: Yeah, I don’t know where that optimism... Maybe non-black folks maybe have some of that optimism. We don't have the privilege of kind of feeling super optimistic because nothing in our history would indicate that things would change that quickly.

Dr. Anderson: That's right. There was a lot of interviews where people were like, well, isn't it great… They would start with this very optimistic, very, euphemistic way of starting like, “Well, we are waking up.” And I was like, okay, well, let's unpack that a bit. Who’s the we? What if this *[inaudible 0:25:28]? But yeah…

Dr. Joy: Yeah. You know, you’ve mentioned Kamala and her race for the vice presidency and so I think that that is another stressor that lots of people are experiencing right now. Is just the whole election and feeling like so much is weighing on this? But I feel like this is another place where people feel a little disconnected because it feels like, yes, I understand that there's a lot riding on this, but also historically, does the presidency really change anything? And do I really see myself and my values and the things I want for my community embraced on any of the tickets?

Dr. Anderson: Yeah, here’s the thing. You know, I'm typically very, I think, even-keeled and will allow a lot of exploration and thought to go into things that I say. I want to be super clear on this one. You just asked this really great hypothetical, like does who I vote for even matter? I think that we can say, without a shadow of a doubt, that the past four years have indicated that it does indeed matter who you elect. It absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, does.

There was a story released this weekend in the Washington Post where a columnist had been documenting some of the small changes that have been happening in the democracy of United States over the past four years and has collected over 30,000 such of these incidents, but only put, like 1%, so like 300 or so on this list. But as you're reading them, Dr. Joy, your mouth–or my mouth–dropped. It absolutely dropped to know that within the past four years, if you weren't paying attention, this shifting of the democracy over things like allowing the press into the room, having daily press briefings on what's going on in the White House, having the sitting president not attend intelligence meetings… Those types of things that four years ago with other presidents would have been unheard of, have happened within the past four years.

So I'm saying that because even if you looked at just the past month, there would be enough things for you to say like, wow, a lot has happened in this presidency. But when you actually sit down and look at what's been shifting and what's been happening over the past four years, you're recognizing that even if we get the sitting president out of office right now, we've shifted democracy so much that we have to really think about how do we go back to a place where these things are normal. To invite the press and the American people back into the decisions that are happening in the White House, to make things classified, to divide conflicts of interest.

I could go on and on, but the point is to say the election of the past four years, in my opinion (as someone who’s studied political science as an undergrad as well) has shifted us so far that I don't think we can afford to say it doesn't matter who we vote for. And I'm praying that people can see just how clear of a shift, of a difference, our community, our country is in today than it was four years ago. So it matters, Dr. Joy, I want people to understand how important it is.

We have lost 215,000 people who may otherwise be here, many of them have been our brothers and sisters. We have changed our ability to have racism in *0:29:09 grants(?) and in practice from federal governments, we have called Christopher Columbus a hero… These are the things that we are saying with our current administration. I just want us to be very clear that our votes will impact our livelihood and the livelihoods of those around us for the next four years.

Dr. Joy: Yeah, and we know, we've already talked about the importance of the collective care. That a lot doesn't happen and then it feels like in order for anything to really happen in our communities, it has to be driven by us. Are there ideas that you have about how we can move more into that, even during the election season and afterwards?

Dr. Anderson: I certainly think that ensuring our participation at various levels is incredibly important. I think at this point, understanding that this is a national election so that's quite important. Also understanding midterm elections which are important things as well, that may not have as much fanfare but that often have really crucial proposals and initiatives or things that we need to be mindful of. And at the more granular level, so how do we build up from this neighborhood watch or this community group, this board? Goes to the city council who makes a proposal there, perhaps we go to the State Senate, perhaps it goes to larger legislation and that way. But all of these decisions are made at such a granular level before they go all the way up to the top courts or the top legislation, so understanding how to get involved in a more granular or local level, I think is incredibly important.

And to not grow weary, which I think is something that, as we've been saying, over time, it's hard not to do. But if you have a president who said, “I'm going to do X, Y, and Z,” we can get that same group, the same neighborhood watch, the same city council sector. We can create this campaign of, “You said you were going to do this, where's the promise on this?” Like, have you upheld your end of it? And I think that those collective efforts to work towards accountability are incredibly important as well. But I do think, by and large, just recognizing that within the black community, we do have one of the strongest and most united blocks of groups and really being thankful for that and fighting for the justice that we as a people need.

Dr. Joy: Mm hmm. This may not be something that we want to kind of consider but I think it is important to think about how to take care of ourselves post-election. Particularly, if it does not go the way that many of us hope that it would go.

Dr. Anderson: Are you sure we’ve got to do this exercise?

Dr. Joy: I’m just saying. I’m worried about it and worried for the community's mental health and so I just would love to hear. And not that I have an answer, because I don't even know what I'm gonna do but I do feel like it is important to start thinking about how to take care of ourselves. Because we know there'll be stories and, you know… So do you have any ideas or is that something you've given any thought?

Dr. Anderson: I have really tried to run very far in the other direction of excitement and opportunity and hope. But if you want to drag me into the bowels of the affair, I think one thing that was really clear from the last election was that the expectation, anticipation, the belief that the sitting president would be elected was not within anyone's capacity of imagination or thought and that that's probably why some people chose not to vote. And I don't even want to put it within our community. I really, really hate when people keep… You know, the finger points at our community, like if y'all had voted for Hillary like you did Obama. It's like, no. Black people by and large showed up and showed out with respect to voting so I don't want that to be the narrative at all.

But there was a collective reduction in voting relative to the Obama-era election, so it is important just to name that we did see a reduction. My absolute hope, before we get into despair, is that we've got weeks and weeks. We've already had, I think, something like 27 million early voters or something of that sort, which is a quarter of what we saw in the last election. We're already at record-shattering numbers, given the myriad ways that people can vote this year, so I just want to start there that we're already doing really great.

I think what I'm tying into, though, is the same sense that “Oh, we got it so I don't have to vote,” that kind of went into the last election when Democrats *[inaudible 0:33:51] large and so some of us sat out and some of us didn't participate. The first thing that I would say is that we have to–come rain, come shine, come like whatever is going on–we have to vote. That's step one.

If it is, though, that the unimaginable happens and that we have someone who is elected in office in this way, I think it's incredibly important to understand just how much the collective at the smaller, more granular levels, can impact what it is that we've seen. I think the resistance, like watching people collectively agitate and protest and get out, has been one of the most amazing elements of the last four years. Just continual pushing back, making sure that the narrative is written correctly. This is not the largest turnout for inauguration, this is not people supporting you at your rallies, this is a counter protest. Like those types of documentation elements are really important while our democracy is being challenged.

So still engaging in activism advocacy, those are important things. And to acknowledge even though these are trying times, there are ebbs and flows in the world. And so this is a very challenging ebb and I certainly don't want to live through it again but if we do, it is a portion of our life. It is not the full story and so we can advocate and resist and push back for those next four years until we get back to some sense of normalcy after that. But this is all a dream and it's all a lie. It's not gonna happen, Dr. Joy, so that’s all I’m saying.

Dr. Joy: Right. We’re just going to have it there, just in case. But I do appreciate the ebb and flow of it because I think it feels really hard when you're in ebb to try to think about the flow, but it is important to know that that is the cycle.

Dr. Anderson: Yeah.

Dr. Joy: Tell us where we can find you, Dr. Anderson. What's your website as well as any social media handles you'd like to share?

Dr. Anderson: The first thing that you can do is find me on my couch in a corner because I am tired. Your girl, she needs a nap. You can just find me in a corner. But I am @RianaElyse, which is 10 letters if you ever don't know how the heck to spell it. If you can't figure it out outside of 10 letters, you can't throw H’s in there, double N’s like your girl Rhianna the singer. You can't do all that. It's only 10 letters so Riana is R-i-a-n-a, Elyse– E-l-y-s-e. That’s it. @RianaElyse across all platforms and then if you want to learn more about me, RianaElyse.com.

Dr. Joy: Perfect. We will be sure to include all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for all of your information today, Dr. Anderson. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Anderson: Thank you, Dr. Joy. Y’all take good care.

Dr. Joy: You too.

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PRESS PAUSE

Dr. Joy: This week, I want you to take some time and think about how you’re going to take care of yourself on Election Day and the days after. We already know that Election Day this year is likely to be intense so I want you to think about what kinds of things you can do now, to keep yourself grounded. Here are a few places you might start.

One: if you can, please try to vote early so that you don't have to deal with any drama that might be afoot on Election Day. Two: consider checking out of Election Day coverage altogether. Many are reporting that it’s likely we won't have a final count on Election Night anyway, so by checking out, you likely won't have missed anything. Three: plan some activities in advance of how you're going to spend Election Day. We'll be having an all-day self-care room over in the Yellow Couch Collective so you're welcome to join us for that. But you can also grab a new book to read, a favorite bath bomb, or map out a playlist of some shows you'd like to watch.

Four: if you can, I'd suggest taking both Election Day and the day after off from work, just so that you don't have to entertain any casual conversations about the election. And five: think about what boundaries you'd like to set with family, friends and coworkers, regarding election discussions. It’s totally fine for you to say that you just don't have the bandwidth to engage.

Have you already started making plans for how you're going to take care of yourself during that time? Be sure to share with us on social media using the hashtag #TBGinSession. And don't forget to text two friends right now to share this episode with them so that they can start making their plans as well. And remember to visit the show notes at TherapyForBlackGirls.com/session178 to learn more about Dr. Anderson and her work.

If there's a topic you'd like to have covered on the podcast, please submit it to us at TherapyForBlackGirls.com/mailbox. And if you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to check out our therapist directory at TherapyForBlackGirls.com/directory. If you want to continue digging into this topic and connect with some other sisters in your area, come on over and join us in the Yellow Couch Collective where we take a deeper dive into the topics from the podcast and just about everything else. You can join us at TherapyForBlackGirls.com/YCC. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.