Session 198: One Year Later

Session 198: One Year Later

Dr. Joy: Hey, y'all! Thanks so much for joining me for Session 198 of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. We'll get into the episode right after a word from our sponsors.

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Dr. Joy: A year ago this week, all of our lives took a very drastic turn. For many of us, it marked the last time we worked from the office, the last time kids went to school and the last time we moved about the world without a mask or two. Looking back, it's really hard to imagine how much would be so different now. If you've been finding yourself a little sadder, moving a little slower, feeling a little less motivated, tired of cooking but also tired of eating out, I want you to know that you're not alone. Many of us feel the same.

Joining me today to chat about what this year has been like and what things might look like moving forward, is Gorgeous West. Gorgeous is an associate professional counselor here in Atlanta, Georgia. She currently works with adults in private practice, helping them to create healthy boundaries, practice self-care, and be the best versions of themselves. She and I chatted about what you might expect related to the pandemic anniversary, tips for digging deeper into your self-care, managing jealousy and FOMO related to the vaccines, and what we're looking forward to post-pandemic. If there's something that resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media using the hashtag #TBGinSession. Here's our conversation.

Dr. Joy: Thank you so much for joining us today, Gorgeous.

Gorgeous: Thank you, I'm so excited for the opportunity.

Dr. Joy: We are officially at the one-year mark of the pandemic, and people have been calling it the pananniversary, and so I am just curious to kind of hear your thoughts about what it looks like and feels like a year later. I think when we think about like this past year, the multiple phases that it feels like... It feels like there was that first phase where we weren't quite sure, people were just kind of looking at different hobbies and we were baking bread and catching up on all the shows, and then it feels like it became a steady decline almost after that. And so now we are finding ourselves at yet another March and we are still kind of in the house for the most part, lots of us anyway. And so let me know what kinds of things have been coming up for you, for clients, about what it looks like to still be here a year later.

Gorgeous: I like the whole idea of it being in phases because it was definitely. I felt it personally like a transitioning phase, I’m like oh, okay, this is cool to spend time at home with family and all of those things. And then I got to sort of like the summer, even for myself and for my clients, we felt like we were like over it because that’s usually when people travel, have vacations. Even when it came to the start of the school year, that was kind of like a weird time as well, too, because no one was actually going back to school. And even for clients, I remember around that August-September time, like the whole, “Okay, we've been doing this for like five or six months, like when is it gonna end?” And then people trying to think about holidays coming up. So it was definitely like a lot of phasing of emotions, more so like a roller coaster, like the up-downs, up downs.

I know, for clients, I think the hardest time was the holiday time as well as maybe the summer time. And so it was like a lot of influx in words of like feelings of sadness, feelings of grief, definitely anxiety, in regards of like, “Okay, I'm over this. I'm kind of scared to leave my house. What does this look like? I'm wanting to try to go back outside.” Because by the summer time that’s when things started to come and like open back up but people still kind of had that fear of like, is it safe? Even with wearing a mask, like, what does this look like?

It was definitely like a roller coaster of emotions. Even for myself and my family, I got to the point I was like, look, I'm over this, I want to go somewhere. But just knowing the safety of my family and everyone else is more important than this want or desire to go to the beach for the weekend, so having to sacrifice a lot was definitely hard.

Dr. Joy: Yeah. And I think we know anniversary reactions can kind of sneak up on you. And I think something else that's happening right now is people are getting the memories on Facebook and Instagram like “this time last year.” Because I think for a lot of us, the weekend that just passed may have been the last time we were out in the world, so to speak, and so now Facebook is reminding us like, wow. And it feels like time has become so weird in this last year because you look back at stuff from like a year ago, and it feels like it was so much longer ago than a year. So can you talk a little bit about just anniversary reactions and what people might expect right now as we kind of continue to go through these like, “Oh my gosh, it was a year since I did X, Y, Z,” or whatever.

Gorgeous: Mm hmm. So definitely like how you said, it is coming unexpectedly. So for some people you could be experiencing feelings of like anxiousness possibly as well as like sadness. Because you're reflecting on what life was like prior to what all happened or occurred. The things that you had access to or were doing before, and then there's like the comparison of I haven't done those things since then. So the feeling of sadness as it relates to that.

Definitely, I would say even for myself, anxiousness. Because I noticed when I went to the store, I was like I need to get some tissue and paper towels and I was like, but I already have tissue and paper towels. But it was just like the experience of I remember when there was no tissue and paper towels available and so it was like I've noticed that coming back up. As well as for some clients of mine, they expressed feeling triggered in regards to like, “Okay, this has been the one year but we're still in it, so now what?” That whole aspect of it–how much longer will this be? Because when it first started, it was like, “Oh, just stay at home for two weeks,” and then two weeks went on, so that here we are now a whole year later.

And so I know that has been very triggering for a lot of people, especially too how schools are opening back up. A lot of kids, the last week was probably like their last week in school or this current week was their last week in school. And now schools are starting to open back up so it’s like a lot of anxiety in regards to that. How can we transition now back into school because we've been doing home schooling for so long, and what will that look like? So it's just a lot of uncertainty, I think, when it comes to feelings and emotions and trying to navigate what's best for each individual or trying to navigate what's best for your family.

Dr. Joy: Mm hmm. I really think it is important for people to make some space to kind of reflect upon what all has happened in the past year. And I know that that can be difficult for people because sometimes when you face these really big emotions, it feels like you'll get stuck there. But I do think because there has been so much that's been uncertain and so much changing very rapidly throughout this last year, I think it is good (if you can) to give yourself some time this week to really reflect on all that has happened in this past year.

Maybe do some journaling, you know, because I definitely have found myself sadder this week with the Facebook memories and like, oh, this is what you were doing last year this time. I'd love to hear this from you, too, but the last thing that I did before everything kind of shut down was present at the Black Enterprise Women in Power summit. And so there were kind of like talks before I even left to go to Las Vegas, but at that time, we of course didn't know how serious this was. And so that was just such an incredible weekend and all of that, and then I get back and then that Monday was the last day the kids went to school.

And so, at the time, like you just said, you're thinking, “Okay, this might be a couple of weeks, maybe a month. What do we need to do to kind of take care of ourselves? Make sure we have supplies for like a short amount of time.” And then you realize, like, I just don't think that anybody could have anticipated we would still be... Not in the same place, but we are still in some ways where we were a year ago. So I think it would be helpful for people to kind of just give some space to reflect on that but also to do some reverence around the grief because we've lost a lot of people. You know, I think that that is just astronomical–half a million plus people, probably at this point and it just feels like in some ways that didn't have to be. So I think the grief related to the people we've lost but also the expectations of what this last year might have been like and how many things have been lost there as well.

Gorgeous: Yes, absolutely. Because even in the grief of losing friends or lost ones, people have lost businesses, companies have closed, they've lost job positions, so there's been a lot of grief outside of just the immediate relationship aspect of it that’s very impactful. And I also think, like how you said, reflecting on the last week or what that was like for you a year ago, because this time last year was my last time in office seeing clients. And so that whole aspect was really like a lot of factors to me when I looked at the date. I was like, wow, I haven't physically sat across from a client for a whole year, and what that looks like on that end.

And so I think reflecting and journaling it out and just really providing the space, not only for you but also *[inaudible 0:12:19]. Because for children, like they haven't played with their friends or been in the school setting, so just really having a conversation with everyone to kind of create the space where they can express what it has been like for them.

Dr. Joy: Yeah. You know, the other thing that I think has been coming up for people, Gorgeous, is this idea of kind of hitting a wall and I think that's in reference to some of the stuff you mentioned earlier just around people kind of feeling over it. People, I think, just feel overwhelmed by all of the up and down emotions and the uncertainty. Do you have any strategies you would suggest for people who feel like they might be hitting a wall at this point?

Gorgeous: Yes. So definitely some things I would recommend is definitely practicing self-care in a healthy way more frequently and really getting in tune with what self-care looks like for you, as well as like how you talk about letting your feelings flow. So if you're frustrated or aggravated with how things have not changed or where things are, creating space for that feeling and emotion so that it can flow in and flow out. And not trying to dismiss it or suppress it because through doing that it will only fester and then you'll lead to like explosion or bursts of emotions and just like having that feeling emotionally overwhelmed. So yes, to avoid that, just creating space for your feelings and emotions.

I think also grounding techniques are helpful. Meditation, mindfulness moments, deep breathing–that's also helpful. I will also say in a sense of like finding a community. So even though you can't go out and have that community with people or engage with people in person, but finding online communities will definitely be helpful. Or a space to connect with people so that you don't feel so isolated or that you are alone because, in a sense, there are probably more than several people who are identifying the same feelings. And so kind of having that normalization of it is definitely helpful so that you don't feel so isolated in your feelings.

Of course, I think getting in therapy is definitely... Let's face it, it will be helpful to express with a professional how you feel and how to identify other coping skills and techniques. Another thing, I think, is kind of like having a gratitude journal. So reflecting on what you have learned over this last year, identifying your resiliency and which things you have overcome over the last year and how that's been helpful. Those are just some of my tips, I think, that would be helpful.

Dr. Joy: Yeah, I think that those are also really great ideas. Something that I've talked about with my own therapist is how self-care has to evolve to kind of match the time. So what self-care looked like for you 18 months ago might be very different than what you're being called to need right now. I think that is also something to keep in mind, that cooking and going for a walk may have been great for you a year ago but now you may be finding yourself a little bit more depleted, your bandwidth might be a little smaller, and so there may be other ways that you need to pour into yourself. And to really give yourself grace with that process of kind of figuring out what these new things look like, but to make sure that you are doing what you can to keep yourself kind of rejuvenated and resilient, like you're mentioning. That this has been a very long haul and so I think it kind of ebbs and flows in terms of what we need at different times.

More from my conversation with Gorgeous after the break.

[BREAK]

Gorgeous: Definitely, because in a sense we can't be resistant to it because it's only gonna make it more difficult for us. So it's like as the time goes on, allowing yourself to just flow with it. And as you're flowing, like you say, evolving with it as well.

Dr. Joy: Yeah, and I really appreciated what you said in terms of the isolation because I think that that has been incredibly difficult for a lot of people. People who are single, who found themselves having to kind of ride this thing out really by themselves and maybe a pet or some plants or something, but really kind of have been isolated for a very long time. So I do think online communities can be really great for that. Do you have any other suggestions for kind of helping with some of that isolation?

Gorgeous: I think in the sense of like connecting with families, I know a lot of people who do like the Zoom family calls or with friends, connecting on those types of platforms. Just to see and engage with other people. Also in the sense of possibly doing like group therapy or group sessions online as well can be helpful. The Sister Circle, so that's the online platform in which women can come together to connect and also talk about their feelings and emotions. I think in the sense of just really finding what works for oneself, for the individual, is great and is important.

Dr. Joy: Yeah, thank you for that. The other thing that of course has come up, Gorgeous, is people are starting to get vaccinated. Some states are, I think, doing a better job than others in terms of the rollout, but you are seeing a decent amount of people now becoming vaccinated. And so the CDC recently released guidelines about what can happen when people are vaccinated and some precautions that you should still maintain. Some people are vaccinated and other people aren't. What kinds of things do you think are coming up, or have you seen kind of come up, related to clients or conversations around vaccinations at this point?

Gorgeous: With clients that I've worked with, most of them have gotten vaccinated and so that has definitely helped decrease some fears and anxieties that they had, especially for those who have elderly parents or loved ones that have health issues. And so they now feel safer in the sense of being able to spend time with them or engage with them. Because a lot of people have elderly parents or they have parents that have illnesses, they haven't seen them in a year or over the last year and so that's been very difficult for them. So finding out that their parents got vaccinated and now they’re vaccinated, that has helped decrease that feeling of worry in regard to, “Okay, could I possibly expose my mother or father and grandmother and grandfather to the virus if I come and visit.” So that has definitely decreased a lot of feelings of worry.

But then too, there are some people that I'm working with that kind of are fearful of getting the vaccinations, so trying to process through those feelings as well in regards of “Should I do this or should I not do this? What will the new normal look like if I do get the vaccine or what will it look like if I do not get the vaccine?” Really trying to process through those feelings and emotions the best way they can and really find out what will be best for them and their families. I've seen both sides of it and some people are now more anxious, trying to decide what to do.

Dr. Joy: You know, the other thing that I've seen is like some FOMO related to people who have gotten the vaccine and other people who are anxiously awaiting their opportunity to get the vaccine. What kinds of things might you say to someone who's feeling a little bit jealous and feeling like, oh, my gosh, when is it gonna be my turn?

Gorgeous: Yes. That, in regards, is just more so like practicing being patient, knowing that their time will come. Because definitely that whole fear of missing out, like everyone's posting their vaccination cards or saying that they got the shot and then everyone's like, well, how did they get the shot? I work in this field, when is it gonna be my time? That has definitely been a thing. But just encouraging those individuals who are feeling anxious to get it, that their time will come and it’s depending on how it rolls out in their state. As well as also letting them know to stay updated with certain resources like CDC to find out as soon as possible, when they will be eligible to receive the vaccination. And talking, of course, to their health care providers–which vaccination or vaccine will work best for them. Yeah, just being informed, I think, is the best advice that I would give.

Dr. Joy: And knowing the resources, like you mentioned. I know here in Georgia, there was a number that we can text so that we get updated when there are vaccinations available in your area. I think lots of other states and counties have similar kinds of resources they offer. I do think there are a couple of Twitter accounts that you can follow so that you know when the health units in your area become available. It does take a little bit of digging, I think, and I wish that were easier for people, especially people who are not like super technologically savvy. But I do think there are some things, like you mentioned, that people can do to kind of stay aware and stay connected to when it may be available for them to get.

And I think the other thing, though, is to not judge yourself for that feeling. Because I think sometimes when you feel jealousy, the next thing that can come is shame but there's no need to shame yourself for something that we have not really had any control over. So it's okay to kind of feel like, oh, somebody else is a little closer to being able to kind of have some different choices than we are, but not to shame yourself for that.

Gorgeous: Yes, absolutely. Because in a sense, that feeling is not productive and it goes down the rabbit hole of other feelings and emotions. So just trying to stay on the more positive or optimistic side of it will definitely help navigate it. I’m not saying that it will be easier to come to you in regards of accessibility, but just it will keep you on the lighter side of things emotionally.

Dr. Joy: Mm hmm. Yeah, I agree with you there. So I think with the vaccines rolling out, people are now starting to think about like, okay, what does my life look like post vaccination? If enough of my family gets it, can we get together for the summer? What kinds of conversations are you having with the community in your sessions with people about, like, what life looks like post vaccination?

Gorgeous: Yes, that has definitely been in conversations because for certain clients, their family were able to get vaccinated. And so in a sense, now they have started then to spend more time together more frequently. Safely of course, but just having like reincorporating the family dinners or planning to do small family trips together. So that has been a thing but then also is still the whole idea of just because we're vaccinated, everyone else is not. And also, just because in a sense maybe a family of five, all five of them are vaccinated, but they might go and visit other family members who only two of them are vaccinated out of however many. So it's like, what does that now look like?

And for some, it's just more so the relief and comfort and decrease of fear but then it's also the idea of everyone's still not vaccinated–how can we all be comfortable still in going to certain places or visiting certain attractions? So just battling with that whole idea has been a thing.

Dr. Joy: Mm hmm. Yeah, and I think we would be naive to think that life will go back to pre-pandemic, just because people have vaccinations. Again, it will be everybody's choice about whether they get the vaccination and we know some people won't, so I think we'd be naive to think that everything will switch like a light switch–that we will just be back to February of 2020. And so I am also just really concerned about the mental health impact that this past year has had on us. We've talked about this on the podcast lots of times, just the chronic stress that many of us have experienced in this past year and we know that that doesn't just go away easily. So what kinds of mental health concerns are you thinking about and should people maybe be preparing to kind of contend with, post-pandemic, so to speak?

Gorgeous: Definitely, like the whole social anxiety aspect of things and wanting to be around people or the fear of being in large crowds or groups and stuff like that. I definitely can see that being kind of like on the forefront. Even agoraphobia, where people are just wanting to stay at home and not leave home. I think more so on the anxiety level of things, maybe seeing an increase in those areas. And also possibly depression in a sense of people still grieving from the losses that they've experienced over the last year and then having a hard time to transition into whatever this new normal is. Depression and anxiety and possibly adjustment disorder, so transitioning into what the new normal will be like in this year and the upcoming year. So yeah.

Dr. Joy: You mentioned this earlier just I think for kids going back to school, like I'm already thinking about what my four-year-old and seven-year-old might be like when they've been so much time with us just at home. And now they may have to go back into school, like what is that adjustment going to look like? So I think we are far from seeing a resolution to this situation and I think that's what I really just want people to kind of be thinking about and try to prepare themselves for as much as possible.

Because I think, again, when you are under such a level of chronic stress like we have been, you don't realize, “Oh, I've been holding my breath. I've been operating at this, like, level 100,” until it is a little safer to come down. And when you have that come down, sometimes that's when the impact really hits you. And so, like you mentioned, people feeling really anxious or really being able to feel the weight of their grief only after they are kind of on the other side. So I think it would not be surprising for people after they have been vaccinated or other people in their families have been vaccinated, to feel both a sense of relief but also maybe feel very anxious or feel really depressed just because of everything else that has happened this year.

Gorgeous: Absolutely. I think one thing that you pointed out that was important is in regards of like the children. Because as parents, we have our feelings but it's also important, like our children have been home and so what does that look like for them in regards of like, okay, they've been homeschooled, so adjusting to the new learning environments? It's a whole transition for everyone on so many different levels but it's all happening at the same time. And so everyone's trying to navigate these feelings all at the same time while still trying to still remain safe. It’s like so many emotions and feelings occurring that we can't control necessarily or just like put a pause to. But it’s like more so honoring, okay, what is it that I feel right now so that I can navigate through the next feeling and emotion?

Dr. Joy: Yeah, and you know, you bring up a really good point around the anxiety because so much of this year has kind of been the message we've gotten is that other people and like the outside world is not safe, and that was a reality in a lot of ways. And so we now are going to be, I think, asked to kind of readjust and reintegrate with the world in a way that I don't think we have had to do in our lifetimes. And I've already heard lots of people say they're continuing to wear masks in public, regardless. So I think I am both interested but also really afraid of what that looks like, because I'm just not sure how you reintegrate into society when so much of this past year has been us trying to avoid one another.

Gorgeous: Yes, it's definitely like the light switch, a complete 180. Because it's like *[inaudible 0:30:31] been telling us to stay with you and your family, the people you live with, but now it's like now we're having to come back outside to everyone. So it's like we don't know who they've been with and so it's like they’re all *[inaudible 0:30:42] in regards of you don't live in my house, I don't know who you’ve been with or where you’ve been. That whole trust factor and like the lack of trust because of not knowing. But then, too, it’s like how do we navigate that? Because it's out of your control who other people have been around or what they've done but then it's like you still have to share space with them.

Dr. Joy: Mm hmm. Yes, I think that'll be something we will of course be continuing to talk to and talk about and keeping our eyes open for how we support our community through what this next phase of life looks like in some ways.

Gorgeous: Yes, definitely.

Dr. Joy: I'm curious, Gorgeous, are there things that you're hoping don't return from pre-pandemic days? Like, are there things that you are feeling like, you know, I wouldn't mind if stuff kind of stayed like this?

Gorgeous: I will say this (this has already changed, though) because I have had to travel during the pandemic–on the flight, I did enjoy the whole empty middle seat, I wish that we could keep that as a thing. But outside of that, let me think... I do like the whole aspect of people being able to spend more time with their families. I think that this definitely slowed a lot of us down because we were so busy with day-in-day-out life. The whole aspect of children being home doing virtual learning, having that rapport with them, I think I’m going to miss that the most, possibly, when it is time to transition back into the schools. I will definitely miss that.

I do like the whole idea of restaurants offering outdoor seating or like you can get the food to go or like the Uber Eats delivery to spend more time home. I like the outdoor concerts that have been going on in certain venues where you can drive up and do like the concert in your car safely. So I thought that that was pretty cool. I still hope like the online community aspect of things stays very active because it is easier and it's flexible for a lot of people to come together at a certain time from different spaces in the state. I do like that part of it. I think that's about it.

Dr. Joy: You bring up a really good point because I do feel like we have seen such a burst in creativity this year. From poetry readings to the Verzuz battles. Like I do really feel like people had to kind of really dig deep to kind of figure out how they were going to entertain. And like I think a lot of cool things have been kind of developed during this time.

I have not been on a flight since last year early March, so I have not had the experience of no middle person on the plane but I agree with you, I think that that is a great idea. And I also echo your sentiments around having the kids home so much. It is really cool to kind of be able to spend so much time with them and kind of observe them in their learning environments in a way that maybe we wouldn’t have before. I'm also really curious to see what workspaces will look like because I know a lot of companies have already kind of moved to stay at home, like you can continue to work from home even once the pandemic is over. So I'm curious to see what kinds of things workspaces are going to do in terms of like maybe allowing people to continue to work from home if they would like to.

Gorgeous: Yes, definitely the workspace is a huge thing. Some people love it, some people don't, and so it's kind of like depending on the individual. But I think that it was a huge changing point for a lot of companies because probably most of the positions they were like, “Oh, this could never be remote,” but now it is. With that being said, oh, okay, well, what does this mean for our company in our office spaces? Is it even necessary for you to have an office space? Kind of going back to the drawing boards with those types of things. But I think ultimately, when it comes to workspaces, that is definitely going to be something that's going to continue to change and I think progress more on the remote side now, especially with everyone having to switch so suddenly to being virtual or remote.

Dr. Joy: Yeah, and I do think it's important for people to keep in mind that this has not been at all a normal work-from-home situation. So if people didn't love it (now, of course that’s not going to be for everybody anyway) but to understand the circumstances surrounding the working from home. You know, if your kids are back in school and you have more support and you're able to kind of do the other things, working from home probably feels very different than it has in this past year. So it’s something to keep in mind for people, too.

Gorgeous: I can only imagine trying to be a teacher, a principal, a lunch lady–like getting lunch ready for the kids on top of having to be in the meeting at the same time.

Dr. Joy: Yeah, yeah, lots more stressors. What's the first thing that you are excited to do, post-pandemic?

Gorgeous: I think in a sense it’s going to be traveling internationally, like I'm ready to go as soon as I can go safely. I'm not like ready to go like I'm gonna be the first one to hop on the plane, but I'm definitely looking forward to planning a trip and a vacation out of the country somewhere nice, somewhere safe, with my family. So that's gonna be the first thing.

Dr. Joy: Yeah, I am ready to go home to Louisiana. I haven't been home in more than a year, so that is something that I'm excited to do–to go home and see my family. But also a good massage because that is also something I have not had in more than a year.

Gorgeous: Yes, yes. See, all the things you forget, like those things are norms prior to the pandemic and then now it's like, oh, I haven't done that in a year. I miss doing those things.

Dr. Joy: Are there any resources, Gorgeous, that have been particularly helpful for you or for other clients during this time, that you might want to share?

Gorgeous: Let’s see. I don’t know one thing. A book, for sure, is the Self-Compassion book by Dr. Kristin Neff. That’s definitely been something I've referred and recommended to a lot of clients during this time because it was just the whole idea of dealing with those feelings of, okay, I'm over this. The anxieties and like being hard on themselves because of what's currently going on in the world. So finding that grace and that space, that has definitely been a good resource.

Of course, Therapy for Black Girls podcast and things that we've talked about on here have been helpful. The Shine app has been helpful for a lot of clients as well, with guided meditations that have been helpful. The Calm app. And I think just overall self-care, like, those have been pretty much the most common things that I've been telling clients to be mindful of doing or incorporating daily into their routines, just for the sense of grounding and the sense of just connecting with self.

Dr. Joy: Mm hmm. Yeah, those have been incredibly popular, I think, for a lot of people so I'm glad that you kind of reminded us of all of those great resources. Where can people find you, Gorgeous? What is your website as well as any social media handles you'd like to share?

Gorgeous: My website is FixingTheFixer.com. On social media, my handle is @FixingTheFixer and that can be on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. That’s where you can find me on all platforms.

Dr. Joy: Perfect. Well, we will be sure to include all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for sharing with us today, Gorgeous.

Gorgeous: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Joy: I'm so glad Gorgeous was able to join us for today's conversation. To learn more about her and her work, visit the show notes at TherapyForBlackGirls.com/session198. And be sure to text two sisters right now to tell them to check out the episode. Don't forget that if you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to check out our therapist directory at TherapyForBlack Girls.com/directory.

If you want to continue digging into this topic or just be in community with other sisters, come on over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the internet designed just for black women. You can join us at Community.TherapyForBlackGirls.com. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all, real soon. Take good care.