The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
It’s a celebration y’all! We made it to 200 episodes and we couldn’t have done it without you. Thank you for listening, sharing, and being such an incredible part of the TBG community. To celebrate this milestone, the production team including my husband Dennison and Cindy Okereke who is our producer for the podcast, joined me for a conversation about how the podcast has grown, some of our favorite episodes, and our thoughts about where we’d like to take the podcast next. And of course we want to hear from you too. If you want to share a quick video or a tweet about your favorite episode and why you enjoyed it, please share it on your social media using the hashtag #TBG200 and we’ll be sharing some of them on our channels.
Visit our Amazon Store for all the books mentioned on the podcast!
Is there a topic you’d like covered on the podcast? Submit it at therapyforblackgirls.com/mailbox.
If you’re looking for a therapist in your area, check out the directory at https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/directory.
Take the info from the podcast to the next level by joining us in the Therapy for Black Girls Sister Circle community.therapyforblackgirls.com
Grab your copy of our guided affirmation and other TBG Merch at therapyforblackgirls.com/shop.
The hashtag for the podcast is #TBGinSession.
Make sure to follow us on social media:
Session 200: It’s A Celebration
Dr. Joy: Hey, y'all! Thanks so much for joining me for Session 200 of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. We'll dive right into the episode right after a quick word from our sponsors.
Dr. Joy: Y’all, we have made it to 200 episodes! I truly cannot believe it! I'm just so incredibly grateful and humbled to reach this milestone for the podcast, due purely to your amazing support. Thank you for all the times you've tuned in, dropped the episode in your group chats, shared it on your social channels, just all of the things. We literally could not have done this without you.
To celebrate 200 episodes, the production team including my husband, Dennison Bradford, and Cindy Okereke who is our producer for the podcast, joined me for a conversation about how the podcast has grown, some of our favorite episodes, and our thoughts about where we’d like to take the podcast next. And of course, we want to hear from you too. If you want to share a quick video or a tweet about your favorite episode and why you enjoyed it, please share it on your social media using the hashtag #TBG200 and we'll be sharing some of them on our own social media channels. Here's our conversation.
Dr. Joy: Cindy, I thought that for Episode 200... First of all, 200 episodes feels huge.
Cindy: That's a huge milestone, especially in the podcasting space. 200 is a commitment and I love that we've gotten here.
Dr. Joy: You know, it feels like I was just recording Episode 100 and now we are 100 episodes later. I'm sure some of that has to do with like what the last year has looked like, just the fact that time feels very weird, but it definitely doesn't feel like it's been 100 episodes since I recorded Episode 100.
Cindy: Yeah, time is really weird, honestly. Because I'm just thinking about that I started with you in May of 2020 but it also feels like I've been here for a very, very long time. Where I'm just like you, how like Episode 100... But thinking about it, I started in May when we were doing some of the Insecure episodes and so when I think about it, I'm like, wait, that was just last year or was that two years ago?
Dr. Joy: Wow! Yeah, so I hadn't even realized that you haven't even been here a full year. But I think that that is something that I also really appreciate about our entire team. It’s that so many people were like members of the community and listened to the podcast even before they joined the Therapy for Black Girls team. And so it does kind of feel like you've been here even before you officially started working.
Cindy: Oh yeah, and I think that's what's so cool about it. Is that in some ways, at least for me just as a marketer, podcast producer, all of those different things, it's how much this audience has grown and how engaged and active the community is and how positive and supportive they are. That like really, really just inspires me to continue to be of service when choosing who to research next, what guests to bring on, and how we can continue to craft and speak to all the different intersections of black girls and black women.
And that's more of as an experience and a philosophy that is inclusive of so many different nuanced experiences. And ultimately, I think that's the best thing for all of our mental health, is to feel included, to feel like we belong and have people understand and hear us. And so, yeah, it's crazy when I think about like we have so many ideas for all of these different shows and I'm just like I can't wait to see what the next 100 or 200 bring.
Dr. Joy: So a couple of things you mentioned. I would love to hear how maybe you have been surprised being on the other side of the production for Therapy for Black Girls. Like anything you were surprised about or anything you're like, “Oh, okay, that's how that comes together.”
Cindy: One of the things I think that surprised me with the production is this truly is like a very small and like scrappy team. And so just between the turnaround times and the fact that we might come up with an idea on our Thursday production meeting and, you know, by Monday we have to figure out what it's going to be and who we might be able to get, and then the episode is out on Wednesday. And so I think just that agility is something that also just both surprised me in how quickly we can kind of turn things around, but always trying to like think ahead and plan ahead and leave these moments for that immediacy. Like if we need to address something urgent, we speak to it.
One of the things that I feel like we really embrace here is that we are speaking to our community so if something comes up within the community and it needs to be addressed quickly or as soon as we can put something together, we prioritize that. And we're not beholden to, oh, no, like, we recorded this with XYZ person and it needs to go out on this date. And I think that is something, less surprising but more just refreshing, is like how much the audience truly is who we serve. And so that even means sometimes pushing back on dates for like publicists or people like that. And, yeah, I just think that's cool. I think it's an integrity move and I appreciate it.
Dr. Joy: Yeah, that is really important to me, even as we have joined the iHeart network. And that is still really important to me, that the people we started serving is who we continue to serve. And because we are so tapped into the community–we are active in the Sister Circle, we are paying attention to the social channels, we monitor the inbox–like we do know what the community is wanting to hear about and what concerns they have. And so I also really appreciate being able to kind of be very responsive and immediate. You know, we haven't had a booster session in a while, though we won't put that off the table, especially given some of the rumblings of what's happening in the world right now.
Cindy: Right, exactly. And so it's like we build that room in for ourselves, right? And I think ultimately, that's why our community continues to grow with us and also gives us grace for when sometimes we're just like, we can't make that happen or we're trying or we're still looking for the right person to answer that call that's been put out. And it's not that we're forgetting, it's just that one of the things for me as a producer that's important is also finding the right person to speak on whatever topic or subject that we have. Just because I think when it comes from an authentic place, regardless of like what size their platform is, you learn a lot and you discover a lot.
And so that also just reminds me of the nature therapy sessions that I put together that started basically as just a passing thought because I was noticing, even for myself, that suddenly *[inaudible 0:09:29] and now I just want more plants and I'm going to become this gardener. I created a little balcony garden for myself and like tried to grow tomatoes... Which I did harvest some but ultimately my balcony is too small and the pot it was in was too small so it just didn't make it. But just learning so much from this like gardening and plant movement, I got curious about why it felt like in this time of crisis that’s something that people were turning to.
And I really had no idea what to google or how to find any of these people. But what started as a google turned into, alright, I found this like hashtag called #BlackBotanistWeek. And so dove into those channels, looking at different black botanists to see if I could find someone there and then it connected me to Beth Collier who's in the UK, and somehow brought me all the way back to Oakland, California, where we talked to Phoenix. And they had so many insights that really tied together all these different pieces from our spiritual connection to our mental health connection to just like how we can be more conscious in our development and our everything. It was just really cool. And that's kind of the stuff that I really love, is like finding this person. And they don't have social channels. Like, they just have an email and I found them somehow from a link in one random article somewhere else. And those are the kind of hidden gems that I think we as black people and we as black women have, that I love that we have the opportunity to share their perspectives and stories.
Dr. Joy: Yeah, I was really excited. Because like you, I saw people just diving into Plant Parenthood as it's been coined, you know. And just you saw it all over Instagram and so it felt like, wow, there's something there and so where that episode took us was so incredible, I feel like I learned so much. And I feel like I really learn from the practitioners and the guests who operate in an area of expertise that is so different than the one that I do, which is something else that I really appreciate. Is that we give space to so many different types of practitioners and healers, so I really enjoy learning from people who do things that are vastly different than I do.
Cindy: Yeah, I think that's also why when you mentioned the gaming episode, I just thought that that was another small thread that we could pull at. And discovering that, well, obviously we know psychology research goes into a lot of gaming and game theory, but to find a black woman therapist doing research on how to optimize games for better mental health outcomes to be able to better regulate your community so that they don't contribute negatively to people's experience of these games. Because I know that for a lot of black girls, a lot of black women, we never felt safe in gaming communities or some of these like nerd fandoms. And I love that we're starting to also find one another and help protect and support one another.
And that in and of itself is one of the mental health benefits of gaming–is that community that it builds and fosters. And as much as people are like “kids don't play outside and do all these things,” it's like, I mean, they still do but... I remember playing outside for a sense of community with like my other neighborhood kids and now they just have the opportunity to have kids from across the world be their community as well.
Dr. Joy: Yeah, I mean and look at like the job opportunities that have come out of that field, right? I mean, I feel like that job might not have existed 20 years ago, you know, so who knows what job titles and opportunities kids will have because of like the time they're spending gaming and being really digital now?
Cindy: Oh, yeah, for sure. And honestly, I feel like that's how I ended up in social media marketing in the first place, is that I was already online so much and I was already kind of just looking and thinking about this idea of audiences before I knew what audiences were. And that has fed so much into my career that I would have never known that I would become a podcast marketer, no less like a podcast producer as well. Because of all of that foundational work I've done with audiences and thinking about like writing and creative ways of expression and research and linguistics, like all of these different things.
That's also why I leave all this room for possibility. And just even if it's a tiny thread. It's the same way that I was like, I don't know what to google for this episode so I'm just going to type some vague keywords in too and see if any articles pop up that might give me a better sense of where this is going. And then just allow the vision to unfold.
Dr. Joy: So what have been some of the sleeper episodes of the podcast? Some of those episodes that either you really enjoyed or you feeling like, “Oh, I really wish more people listened to this episode in particular.”
Cindy: I mean, I don't know how many people are listening to the nature therapy, particularly session... I think it's 173, which is Repairing Our Relationship to Nature. I talk about it all the time because I just think that there are just so many gems within those. I also love the recent episode we did with Dr. Peifer on complex PTSD because I think it talks about it less from there's one traumatic incident, but talks about it in some of the small ways that we're encountering these like traumas repeatedly, and it creates the experience of complex PTSD because you can't attach it to one thing. And so I think there's so much for people to gain from that. What about for you? Like, what are some of your sleeper hits?
Dr. Joy: Yeah, I definitely agree with you on the nature one. I definitely think that that was one that took us by surprise and I think a lot of people could really find some usefulness there. I also really enjoy (and I think a lot of the community enjoys, but I want to make sure lots of people hear this one) around the Superwoman Syndrome. Spirit was the guest and it was a really early on episode, but she just did a beautiful job of like breaking down all the different nuances and ideas behind the strong black woman syndrome, and really helping to unpack some of that.
You know, I feel like that is something that continues to plague us as black women, is just trying to like save everybody and taking on too much even when we don't have enough reserve left for ourselves. And so I think, especially after this year, that's one that feels like it could be revisited often to kind of make sure that you're kind of checking yourself and paying attention to how you might be falling into that stereotype.
Cindy: Oh, absolutely, and it's Session 54. Shedding Your Superwoman Status.
Dr. Joy: Yes.
Cindy: I fully agree with that because I also feel like, for myself, I say yes to a lot of things because I'm just a very optimistic person. And it's one of those things I both love about myself, but I also sometimes like hate, because I put myself in these positions where it's like, “you have no time and you're not taking care of yourself the way you need to be.” But I think it's also divorcing this idea of I have to be this level of productive all the time in order to feel valuable. So that's why I also really, really do like that episode or like listening to it.
As well as Session 50. Like, I think you mentioned it to me, it's like a short episode, but it has these great questions in it–it's called This Isn’t What I Imagined. And I think it's something worth revisiting regularly, is reminding yourself that you might have pictured something differently but the result came about in a different way but that doesn't make that result any less valuable. And like, I don't know, like reflecting on where you are. When I think about it, it's like this life I have right now isn't what I imagined but I love the life that I've created. It's just that my imagination didn't have the concept yet or the vision hadn't existed. I just know how I want to feel and that's something that I work towards every day, is how do I want to feel. And I love episodes like that, that just kind of remind you of what you're looking for and how you want to feel and this life that you want to create, and then not being too hard on yourself.
Dr. Joy: Mm hmm. Yeah, I feel like Session 50 is my all-time favorite episode. Again, it was really brief but I feel like it really taps into the heart of like, so much that I've seen over the years. Just in my clinical work and in the work with the Therapy for Black Girls community. I really feel like there are all these like ideas from society and from our families and all of these other places that are put onto us about what our lives should look like. And I see so many sisters struggle with, like this idea that at 25 I would have all of these things and if I don't, then I'm a failure or whatever. And that is just not the truth.
I mean, you shared your own story in terms of how your life doesn't look like what you imagined but, in some ways, it may be greater than you imagined. So I think it is a reminder to kind of stretch our imaginations and that we can only really consider as far as we have kind of like imagined for ourselves. But if we continue to push our imaginations, then there are vast things that can open up in ways that we just never really knew about. So I think that that is like my all-time favorite episode.
Cindy: I love it. I think that one's also a sleeper hit. I don't hear of it brought up that often but hearing you talk about it and then hearing you mention that our new community assistant also really enjoyed that episode, it prompted me to revisit it and I found like a whole new appreciation for it. So, yeah.
Dr. Joy: I feel like it's really hard sometimes to pick favorites out of 200 episodes, right? Because we have so much content, there's just so much good stuff there.
Cindy: Yeah. And I'm just like, oh, is it that I want to talk about tarot? Because that's another one, like the tarot therapy episode, the astrology episode. All of these, kind of like different mediums that people are putting therapeutic practices towards, which is just really cool. I'm just like, I don't know how to choose. Or like the queer relationships episode, I really loved that one too. Just like affirming the experience of cultivating these relationships–I just think that that's so important. I could just keep going.
Dr. Joy: But you know, what I really appreciate in terms of what you're sharing is this idea that I really feel like we really strive to have people seen in the content. So every episode might not be for you but we want you to see yourself somewhere. And so finding these, like you mentioned, thread to unravel and kind of seeing where it takes us. Like just kind of following our own curiosity, paying attention to what people are saying. Like the tarot episode and the astrology episode may not have been things that I would have considered, it wasn't necessarily on my radar, but I love that you brought that in.
So really kind of us embracing our own curiosity and like, “Oh, this is something I'm interested in and I see other black women talking about it. Like, let's talk about it on the podcast.” And I feel like that is something that we strive and I hope people feel like they see themselves in the content. But to really give people like voices and language for the things that they may be experiencing, that they might not hear or see talked about in other places.
Cindy: Yes. That's the powerful piece, is that language is so crucial to the way that we understand ourselves and others and it's also quite literally the programming for our brains. And so the more language you can learn around your experiences (I feel like), the more, I guess, settled you feel in yourself, just because now you can communicate it to someone. And I mean, that's also what talk therapy is about. Like sometimes I'll sit with my therapist and I will ramble. And I'm like, this is not gonna make sense and she's gonna have no idea how to like do anything. And she’ll just kind of tie it together and pull it back in and be like, “Is it potentially this?” And I'm just like, “Oh, my God.”
And now I’m weeping because I'm just like, she heard me, she understood me and she felt me in this moment and helped me take the stuff that's hanging around in my brain, that I don't have the language tools for, and offered it back to me. So that now I can share it with someone else and be like, “Hey, this is what I'm experiencing right now. Please bear with me.” And that's okay. And that's why I just continue to hope all these different episodes, like whether you see yourself directly in every single one, there is something ultimately for you. Just because this is such a shared experience amongst all of us.
Dr. Joy: Agreed.
Cindy: Dr. Joy, what ultimately do you envision for the podcast and its growth? Because I feel like we've hit some major milestones during the time that we've been together. For instance, winning an iHeart award, being nominated for an Ambies... Like, you know, being an independent project that's gained so much love and attention, that's also a feat in and of itself for the podcasting space. And so, I would love at Episode 200 for you to share some of what you envision for the next 100, 200, 400.
Dr. Joy: That feels huge. Yeah, so I really just envision us continuing to kind of experiment. I feel like we have a good foundation, like we just mentioned, like there's so much of a back catalogue that there's still tons of topics for us to cover or to uncover. But there are quite a lot that we've already dug into and so I really want us to kind of experiment with doing different things on the podcast.
You know, some of my favorites (and also I think some of the community's favorites) are when we dig into pop culture moments. So the Insecure episodes, like you've mentioned, Malcolm & Marie, Queen Sugar, like all of the shows that sisters are watching, I really love doing those kinds of episodes. Because I love pop culture and so I am always paying attention to what I watch and then, of course, bringing like a psychologist lens to it and thinking about how can we expand this to a larger conversation? I definitely want to continue doing more of that.
But I'm really just interested in like more people joining the team to bring additional perspective because I think, like I mentioned, when you came on and like started sharing your ideas, they were different than ideas that I would have explored. And so I'm looking forward to how that continues to happen as we continue to broaden the team. And I'm really excited that we are growing the team. Like that this thing that has started and continued in my bedroom closet is now a thing where black women are working alongside me to make this content for our community. I'm really, really excited about the team growing and seeing the very cool things that we're able to do with more people involved.
Cindy: Yeah, I love that and thank you for that. Because you truly have created a unique opportunity for all of us on the team. Because it's very rare when you're in a group and work with and for people who also consider your mental health and also think about taking breaks. Like I remember when I took a week off or whatever, and you were like, “Aren’t you on vacation? And I was like, “Oh never mind. I’m just gonna...” And just being that vigilant for one another, I just also think that that's something that's beautiful so I look forward to all of it.
Dr. Joy: Anything in particular you're looking forward to? Like any topics we haven't explored that you're like, oh, I can't wait until we get to this episode?
Cindy: Oh, there are always like a zillion ideas hanging around my head at all times. I love the pop culture element just because I think media really does ground us a lot of times. Like media helps us kind of like quantify those things and understand some of these like themes in our lives, because you get to watch it play out on screen. I would love to do more of those to hear about the psychology of it. I also really want to figure out how we can do an episode around the evolution of black women in reality TV, just because I think that is an interesting one.
Dr. Joy: The other one that you have mentioned that we haven't quite figured out either is oldest daughters.
Cindy: Oh, yes, that was another one. Yeah, the life experience of an oldest daughter. Because it feels like such a unique experience across the African diaspora. Like in the States and abroad and everywhere, there's just something about it and I would love to uncover that. And then also thinking about non-traditional religions and what that means for black women, black people. Just because, you know, like I know that Christianity is foundational for many of us but we've also seen how some of those frameworks have been toxic. And so people are kind of in search of “what else” and what are some other possibilities that are available? So I think that could be an interesting conversation.
And also just talking about intergenerational relationships, like I would love to do more of that exploration. So talking to older members of our community, talking about what they've seen and how they understand, potentially having a roundtable with someone's grandmother, a daughter and like their daughter. Just thinking about those kinds of dynamics and how we reimagine what it means to be a matriarch of your family.
Dr. Joy: Hmm. Oh, I love that. So y'all stay tuned because you see we are clearly ideating on lots of cool ideas. And of course, we always welcome your input; if there are things that we haven't covered or haven't covered in the way you'd like to hear, you can always send those to us at TherapyForBlackGirls.com mailbox. We do, like I mentioned, keep an eye on that so that we know what kinds of things y’all want to hear about.
Cindy: And if there are any like really cool people doing interesting things, feel free to just tag me on Twitter or send it to me, just so that it's on my radar because you never know what sparks an idea for me. And those creative rabbit holes, I just need to fall down them every once in a while.
Dr. Joy: Cindy loves a good rabbit hole, y’all! So what is your Twitter so that people can tag you in all the interesting stuff?
Cindy: Oh, yeah. My Twitter is @EssenceOfCin. Those are the first three letters of my name.
Dr. Joy: Perfect. And you can also tag the Therapy for Black Girls accounts, she has an eye on those as well.
Dr. Joy: Thank you so much, Cindy. This was great, to kind of do a little bit of behind the scenes conversation and share with the community just how we feel like we've grown in 200 episodes.
Cindy: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's kind of weird being on this side of the mic but you make it a very comfortable experience, so thank you.
Dr. Joy: Thank you.
Dr. Joy: When I first came up with the idea of starting a podcast, did you think it would make it to 200 episodes?
Dennison: Yes, I absolutely thought it was gonna be, you know, 200 episodes! No, I did not. I did not think it was gonna be 200 episodes. I thought you were gonna do it for a little bit and then it was gonna be it. We were gonna do maybe like maybe 50 episodes and then we was gonna be done with this. I thought this was an experiment, that we were gonna do this for a little bit and then I was gonna be done.
The feedback that we've gotten from these episodes has been phenomenal. Like, I remember when you had your first 1000 downloads and I was like you like, okay. You’re like “I'm at 10,000 downloads,” I was like, okay. And then you're like, “I'm at 200,000, downloads.” I said oh, Lord, we're gonna be doing this forever. And now, over 16 million downloads–can you believe that? And just think about it, right? You came into the bedroom, it was like, “I got this idea. I'm going to do Therapy for Black Girls.” And I was like, “Okay, baby, I'm playing PlayStation.” ...Why are you looking like that?
Dr. Joy: I feel like it is a blessing and a miracle that we are still together after working on 200 episodes together.
Dennison: Yes. I will say that, yes, you're absolutely correct by that. Yeah, there have been a lot of late nights that we've been up. It has not been as rosy as some people say. It is hard working with a spouse, especially dealing with me.
Dr. Joy: Yes.
Dennison: Dealing with me, you know. But just really understanding what you were called to do and being able to be here with you and seeing how you have actually gone from this thing that you had an idea to, to this whole movement. You know, to being amazed that you've been able to help and support black women the way that you do. Also have our kids see that as well. You know, I think it's been a true testament to yourself. And then think about it, we have a few nieces and them being able to see that their Titi or auntie (or Ti if you’re from Louisiana) is on TV, has been amazing.
Dr. Joy: Yeah.
Dennison: And I just love the fact that you’ve stayed true to yourself. You know, I will say that there have been times that I may have said, “Hey, I would do it this way,” and you have politely said no.
Dr. Joy: Or not so politely.
Dennison: I wasn’t gonna say it. See, I wasn’t gonna say that. I wasn’t going to put that in there; you put that in there! But, right, you told me no and you've stayed true to yourself. And that's what I can honestly say that I love about it and then just you being tenacious about black women in the sense that we have to help.
Dr. Joy: The thing that is hilarious to me is when you will take something that you have learned from one of the guests and try to like slip it into conversation, I feel like you do that very often. Especially, I feel like there was an episode with Dr. Lex, we were talking about “Do relationships have to be hard work?” And I feel like there was a lot of that conversation that you ended up trying to squeeze into conversations later.
Dennison: I have learned a lot more about who you are and how you've been trained to really help people. The episodes will help you in when you're looking for something to get clarity. And I can honestly say that I have directed a lot of my friends, colleagues and people that I know, to episodes that have really just resonated. And to be quite honest with you, you and Cindy were talking about it earlier, but the episode with Spirit.
My background, as you know, I was working in corporate America, I had a lot of African American leaders that have to go in every day and put on a shield that they really shouldn't have to do. They take it upon themselves to be *[inaudible 0:38:19] leaders, and that takes a toll on them. And so being able to go in and share that episode with a lot of the VPs that I know was very beneficial, and it also helped me to be able to relate to the times that they were sometimes stressing out and they had to be strong when they probably didn't need to.
Dr. Joy: What are you looking forward to in terms of growth for the podcast? Where can you see this going?
Dennison: Well, I see another 600 episodes, to be quite honest with you. Why are you looking at me like that?
Dr. Joy: 600 feels like a lot.
Dennison: So the thing that I would like to see is what we’ve been seeing, is just a reckoning, right, where black women are getting the credit they deserve. On top of getting the credit that they deserve, also getting the help that they need for traumas they may have experienced in their past. I personally want to see this continue on for many years to come, and really help us heal the trauma that we have in our community.
Dr. Joy: Thank you so much for all of your help and your support.
Dennison: Listen, I can't do nothing else. I can't do nothing else, I don’t have no choice. This ain’t no choice, like this is now a lifestyle. I appreciate you so much. Thank you.
Dr. Joy: I'm so glad Cindy and Dennison were able to join me today. I want to thank them for all of their hard work in making the show happen each and every week. Don't forget to share your favorite episodes of the podcast with us, either in a tweet or a video, using the hashtag #TBG200. And share your ideas for future topics with us in our mailbox at TherapyForBlackGirls.com/ mailbox.
If you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to check out our therapist directory at TherapyForBlackGirls.com/directory. And if you want to be in community with other sisters who love the podcast, come on over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the internet designed just for black women. You can join us at Community.TherapyForBlackGirls.com. Thank y’all so much for joining me again this week and for rocking with us for 200 episodes. Here's to 200 more! I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.