The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
It’s safe to say that many of us value being heard and understood. In order for that to happen, we must utilize effective communication skills. But, what does that look like? How do we know when we’re doing a good job communicating our point of view or listening to someone else’s? Joining me this week to dig more into this topic is Morgan R. Graves. Morgan and I chatted about the characteristics of good communication, avoiding poor communication habits, and understanding the different communication styles that exist.
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Executive Producers: Dennison Bradford & Maya Cole Howard
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Session 247: Improving Communication Skills
Dr. Joy: Hey, y’all! Thanks so much for joining me for Session 247 of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. We’ll get right into the episode after a word from our sponsors.
Dr. Joy: It’s safe to say that almost all of us want to feel heard and understood. In order for that to happen, we must utilize effective communication skills. But what does that even sound and look like? How do we know when we’re doing a good job communicating our point of view or listening to someone else’s? As our methods for communication continue to evolve, so must our skills. Joining us this week to dig more into this topic is Morgan R. Graves.
Morgan is a certified counselor and therapist helping individuals, couples and entrepreneurs improve their relationships through healthy communication skills. Morgan and I explored the characteristics of good communication, avoiding poor communication habits, and understanding the different communication styles that exist. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share it with us on social media using the hashtag #TBGinSession. Or join us over in the Sister Circle to talk more in depth about the episode. You can join us at Community.TherapyForBlackGirls.com. Here’s our conversation.
Dr. Joy: I really appreciate you taking some time to chat with us today because this is gonna be such an important conversation, I think, just around what effective communication looks like for people. It’s often missed, so I’m glad you’ll be sharing that with us today.
Morgan: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.
Dr. Joy: When we are thinking about effective communication, what does that even look like? How would we even know if we're doing a good job in communicating?
Morgan: I think you will know when you feel heard and you feel like you hear the other person. A lot of times in communication, that's the biggest thing: we want to feel like we are heard and that we are understood. With that, I use a mixed approach, one with the Imago theory where there are three branches. Where you're mirroring, you are validating and you're empathizing with the person that you are in conversation with. That is the three key pieces when you are effectively communicating but of course, different parts of us respond based off our past experiences. So really honing into do I understand what this person is trying to convey with me? Am I communicating what I intend to convey to the other person? And can we get to a middle ground in finding where we stand with the communication?
Dr. Joy: I would love for you to dig a little deeper into those three things that you shared. You said mirroring, empathizing, and then validating?
Dr. Joy: Can you tell us what each of those means?
Morgan: Okay. To start, everybody wants to be heard. When we’re not heard, we either push back or we shut down, so a good starting point is just to make sure you're mirroring. Mirroring is when you are rephrasing, paraphrasing what you heard the other person say. You're essentially seeking some clarification. Did I hear you correctly? Next, you move on to the validation. Even if you don't agree with what you're hearing, what is it that you understand the other person may feel? Even if you don't agree, what can you understand? And then last, empathizing, just putting yourself in somebody else's shoes.
Dr. Joy: Got it. And are there different communication styles that exist?
Morgan: There are. However, you may swing between different communication styles, based off of your attachment. You have a primary attachment style within. You may go through different phases, based off of the particular situation or the type of audience you have that leads you to respond in particular attached states.
Dr. Joy: Can you break down attachment styles for maybe anybody who's not familiar with that?
Morgan: Absolutely. Essentially with attachments, we are seeking safety and security and the attachment style is how we view ourselves and others based off of what we have experienced. Now, when we grow up and become adults, we have some of these same attachment styles and states that come up for us, and that is just basically how we respond to interpersonal relationships.
Dr. Joy: When we're thinking about like communication and we put that together with our attachment styles, that may indicate like how we show up in a conversation or whether we even are gonna broach certain topics, right? I'm thinking somebody who maybe has more of an anxious attachment style, it may be less likely for them to go into a conversation that they know might be difficult for the other person, right? Can you say a little bit more about how our attachment style then shows up in communication?
Morgan: Absolutely. The anxious type will actually, because they are fearful of being abandoned, they will over communicate. They will want to talk and talk and talk and talk about how they're feeling because it's almost like the kid that's squeezing the animal so hard that it's almost like they're choking. The avoidant attachment type will more or so shy away from having those conversations. They're like, nope, we don't need to touch that at all, it's cool.
Dr. Joy: Got it, okay. You know, one of the first things that we learn as therapists–and this is incredibly important to the work we do–is active listening, and so I know that that is also something that is really, really important in your own interpersonal relationships. Can you say a little bit more about active listening? What it is and how we can do a better job of doing it.
Morgan: Active listening is when you are actually honing into what the other person is saying. You are really listening with the intent to understand rather than with the intent to have a rebuttal.
Dr. Joy: And this is so hard, Morgan. Because I think most of us, we’re like, okay, I’m preparing my response because I want to give them what they want. But a lot of times when we are listening to prepare our response as opposed to listening to what they're saying, there's a lot missed. How do we slow down the process and make sure that we are actually active listening? What kinds of tips would you share?
Morgan: I would be more curious. Ask more questions. Because when you understand the meaning behind certain things for people, it helps you to understand them a little bit better. It allows you to not only take what they're telling you now, but it allows you to apply that lesson to other interpersonal situations that you may have with that person.
Dr. Joy: I would imagine that there are things that get in the way of us having effective communication. Can you talk with me a little bit about what kinds of things destroy our ability to have effective communication with other people?
Morgan: For this, I go to Gottman and what he calls The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, and that is typically what gets in the way of us having that basic flow of conversation with the mirroring, the validation and empathizing. And that includes The Four Horsemen: criticism, defensiveness, contempt, and then stonewalling. And those, again, may come up because of our past experiences but there are antidotes to that.
The antidotes, that's what I really push as a means to help in your communication. To combat criticism, you have a gentle startup. How you start a conversation is very indicative of how the conversation will end. If you start a conversation on 10, more than likely it’s going to end on 10 or 1,000. You want to make sure that you're using a gentle startup, and with that, you are observing from an objective standpoint. You are owning your thoughts, your feelings, without putting it on anyone else. Those basic I am statements, I feel statements. I feel (insert emotion) about (insert situation) and then give a request. Sometimes we feel like we shouldn't have to tell people certain things. Well, why not? How are they supposed to know?
And then you have defensiveness. The antidote to defensiveness is going to be taking responsibility. That's where you are attempting to find any truths in what you hear someone else sharing with you or to you. Next, you're going to have contempt, and so with contempt, the antidote is building a culture of appreciation and then combining it with what you've already learned with those gentle startups. Owning your thoughts, your feelings, but then also making sure that you are giving appreciations.
And then last is stonewalling. Stonewalling is when we kind of get flooded with emotions and our thoughts and sometimes that might look like shutting down. Other times, that may look like leaving the situation altogether. But stonewalling is when you are no longer present. You might physically be there, but you're not present in that conversation. Being present is also really key in having effective conversations. The antidote to stonewalling is going to be self-soothing. That might mean taking a break from the conversation, maybe like 20 minutes, and then coming back to the table and completing the conversation or having a more productive conversation.
If you do have to put a pause in the conversation, I wouldn't go any longer than 48 hours and I will have a time limit. If you are leaving the conversation, be open with that. And saying, hey, can we check back in about 20 minutes? I need to think about that. Or maybe you’ve ran out of time for having that particular conversation. Maybe saying, hey, how about we connect tomorrow at two o'clock? That lets someone feel heard. So not that we are going to just completely forget about the conversation, but we are kind of gonna put a pin in it. And having a set time to come back to the conversation allows both of you all to feel that you aren't neglected or abandoned.
Dr. Joy: Thank you for that, Morgan. Something else that will often get in the way of effective communication is somebody behaving passive aggressively. Now, does passive aggressiveness fall under one of The Four Horsemen that you have identified, or is that something different?
Morgan: Passive aggressive, I think that would fall under contempt in a lot of ways, but it does depend on the intent behind it. If you're being passive aggressive because you're starting to feel defensive, that's one thing. It technically, depending on how it's done, can fall under any of The Four Horsemen.
Dr. Joy: How will we know if we are being passive aggressive? Are there any things that black women say that could be in this category of passive aggressiveness? Like, oh, we are about to go down a road that might not actually be effective communication... Because I think we hear that term thrown out, but I don't know that everybody really knows what does passive aggression even look like?
Morgan: The one that comes to the top of my head the quickest is when someone were to say “nothing.” You're saying nothing is wrong with you but your body language and your tone is suggesting that something is very much so wrong with you. A more assertive way to share that would be to say, “Something is going on with me right now. I don't care to talk about it. When I'm ready to talk about it, I will come to you and let you know.”
Dr. Joy: You know, as we're talking about that, Morgan, it's making me wonder why so often many of us do respond with “nothing” instead of actually saying what's wrong in the beginning. Like can you talk through maybe what leads us to lead with “nothing” when it is very obvious that something is wrong?
Morgan: I think that it’s from our households of origin. Depending on what we were taught to communicate or how to communicate, that is one thing. But then also avoidance. We don't want to have more conflict. If it seems like, feels like, looks like it might lead to conflict, we just want to shy away from it. Or we feel as though, well, it's not gonna help for me to talk about it so why am I even gonna talk about it?
Dr. Joy: More from my conversation with Morgan after the break.
Dr. Joy: You mentioned already, our facial features or the way we're kind of contorting our face and our body language indicates something's going on. Can you talk about like the importance of facial gestures and like nonverbal communication as a part of effective communication?
Morgan: Absolutely. Because it can be confusing to hear one thing but then see another and so I think that with communicating a lot, comes back around to self-awareness and knowing what's going on with you. A lot of times, we'll feel it in our bodies when we are having a particular emotional response. Our heart rate may increase or we may feel like something is kind of sinking in our stomachs, and so being aware of that.
But sometimes, especially with black women, we have like the resting bitchface, like we can't really get around that. Or when we are assertively communicating, sometimes it can come off as, oh, this is the mad black woman. It’s like, no, I am voicing my opinion. And so I think it's important to recognize that your voice matters and is important while also making sure that you are in complete alignment with yourself.
Dr. Joy: Yeah. You know, I think that that's important to kind of think through because a lot of times when black women are accused of being angry, sometimes we are angry and there probably is a reason why we are angry. But I think what often happens is that we get into trying to like modify our voice or we do a lot of contortions to try to make the message easier for other people. When really, they may not hear it, no matter how soft our voice is, because they are just kind of determined to see us in one way.
Dr. Joy: I'm thinking, when you started talking about we notice a sinking in our stomach or we have a headache all of a sudden or we feel shaky, I'm wondering what it looks like in therapy to be working through some of this effective communication thing. Like what kinds of things would you do with an individual client who came to you and said that they were having trouble speaking up for themselves at work or having trouble communicating things in other areas of their relationship? What kinds of things might you do with them in therapy?
Morgan: For the external piece of it, sometimes I will have my clients write out what are their thoughts so that it’s there, we can honor every part of what we're thinking, our thoughts. And then depending on the audience, what is useful information? What helps you get to your end goal and what's for you to process? So externally, that's one exercise that I do.
And then internally, there's a lot of questions pertaining to like their internal journey. When they have a response or when they didn't like what was said, it's like what's going on with that? What happened there for you? What did it remind you of? Where did your mind go when you heard this particular message? And then also, as the speaker, what happened that got you kind of stumped? How far could you go? And when you got to your obstacle, what happened there? The cat’s got your tongue; why there? What was going on?
Dr. Joy: Do you typically do like a lot of role playing with clients? If they are preparing to make some big ask at work or something like that, would you maybe do a lot of role playing with them?
Morgan: I do a lot of role playing and I use a lot of the information that they have given me based on their perception of the other person, so that it's more so that in vivo experience. Because I'm really embodying the picture that they have created of that person. Whether it's mom or whether it's dad or a manager at work or husband, I really embody that so they can really sink into that feeling. And then again, you know, part of being in therapy is getting to the point where you feel like I do have the resources to take on this conversation. I can do this. And so that's kind of just putting them in the mindset of “here's this image,” as scary as it might seem, but then also reminding them that they have the tools, the resources to get through the conversation.
Dr. Joy: What's the balance there, Morgan? Because as you say that, I'm thinking a lot of times what happens when we know we have to have maybe a difficult conversation is that we try to do this role playing. Like, okay, I'm gonna say this and then they're gonna say this, and I think sometimes we get caught up because (of course) we don't know perfectly what the other person is gonna say. What's the balance of doing some of this role playing but not doing too much where you get caught up in a script that's probably not gonna play out in real life?
Morgan: For me, I explore worst case scenario and then I explore best case scenario so that anything else that happens falls between the range. If they can handle worst case scenario, then they can handle anything better than worst case scenario.
Dr. Joy: And have you noticed that there are particular techniques or things that clients benefit from more than others as you're talking about doing some of this in therapy?
Morgan: I think that the role playing is more beneficial for clients because sometimes they do get in that cycle that you were referring to as kind of like going over scenarios, and one scenario turns into another scenario, and it's just a bunch of what ifs. And so with the role playing, it’s one experience or a couple of experiences but it is a stopping point for them. I also encourage my clients to give themselves a time period for worry, maybe allotting 20 minutes for certain situations that caused them to go into that anxious spiral.
Dr. Joy: And then after that, you’ve got to put the worry aside, basically?
Dr. Joy: Yeah. We know that one of the common things that couples come into counseling with, even if this is not ultimately the issue, but a lot of couples present to therapy saying “we have communication problems.” I would love for you to help us unpack what is typically underneath those communication problems. And if it is actually communication, what are some of the common things that come up with couples who are coming to therapy for communication problems?
Morgan: What's underneath would include childhood wounds, so experiences starting from childhood. But then also seeking that safety and security to be their authentic selves but kind of a little bit worried that it's either gonna cause conflict or it's gonna cause abandonment.
Dr. Joy: I just want to stop you because you've mentioned this before in this conversation, around like we are so afraid of conflict. What is the real fear when people have a fear of conflict? Like what are people typically afraid is gonna happen?
Morgan: Abandonment. They're going to get left or they're going to be rejected in some type of way. And again, typically, that comes from their childhood wounds, so how they were raised and the foundation of their safety and security. Because of course, when you're in your childhood, you form these notions of yourself and of other people and if the world is not a safe place, then how can I be my authentic self? How can I tell you how I really feel and it be okay?
So you’ve got the childhood feelings, you've got betrayals that happened in different ways that the relationship’s safety and security has been challenged. When you don't feel completely safe with your partner, either because of past experiences and other relationships or because of betrayals in your current relationship, that impacts communication. And I think that a lot of people test out the waters a lot and then if they don't get the response when they test out the waters, then they kind of retreat. Rather than going more so into that curiosity of “what was that about?”
I think being curious is a really strong component. Being curious, not only of the other person but of yourself. And then accepting the wide gamut of emotions that we as humans experience, knowing that it won't always be pleasant. The unpleasant emotions or immediate outcomes may not feel great, but in the long run, they really help to build certain bonds.
Dr. Joy: Yeah, I think that curiosity is a really important word. Because in most relationships, if this is somebody who cares about you... We're not talking about people who just have malicious intent but in a caring relationship, when you're curious, you realize that anything that may have struck you in a hurtful way or that didn't quite sit right, it isn't necessarily that the person was being malicious but it has activated something. Can we have space in our relationship to be curious, like you mentioned, about what just happened there. What did you say and what did I hear, and then what was tinder for me? Like what really got activated for me when I heard you say that thing? And like you said, it can tend to bring relationships or couples (or whatever the dynamic is) closer together, because now we've gone a little deeper into what's at the foundation of our relationship with one another.
Morgan: Exactly. And then that also builds intimacy.
Dr. Joy: Mm hmm, yeah. More from my conversation with Morgan after the break.
Dr. Joy: I have a couple of scenarios that I would like for you to share a little bit more about. I'm gonna give you a couple of partnership dynamics and I want you to highlight maybe one of the common communication struggles that you see come up in these dynamics. We've already talked about it a little bit, but the first one is what about in a romantic partnership? What's one of the most common communication struggles that come up and what can people do to kind of manage it?
Morgan: The hardest ones or maybe more so those that surround sex, like being honest about their sex life. Sex is a difficult conversation, especially if the other partner starts to feel that they just are not able to please their partner. What I do suggest is what's called a state of the union, and that is just a weekly time where you set aside with your partner, about an hour, to talk about what's working, what's not working. You're giving appreciations and then you are addressing any lingering conflict from the week, and then you're able to put out a request. Like what do you need in order to feel more loved? What do you need from me this week? And so it just kind of breaks it down into shorter milestones. So we're checking in often, it's a time that you can expect to have this conversation so you're not completely caught off guard. And you know that both of you are coming without being armed, so to speak, because you're expecting to have this conversation. And both of you all understand the intent of the conversation is to really check in on “where are we” and come in with the understanding that we're both gonna be honest about what comes up during this meeting.
Dr. Joy: I like that. It does feel like putting a framework and some boundaries around that, help you to enter it from a more less defensive space.
Dr. Joy: Yeah, okay. What about with a business or a creative partner? What's a common communication issue that might come up and what can we do about it?
Morgan: With that, I would suggest the art of compromise, where basically you are both able to explore what's important for you, so where you're flexible and where you're not flexible. And then for the areas where you're not flexible, having a conversation of what the meaning is behind it and why that is such a rigid area for you.
Dr. Joy: Yeah, because the why can be important.
Morgan: Right. And then based off of that, find a middle ground so that you can get to a resolution.
Dr. Joy: Got it. And what about with a friend?
Morgan: I think it's really important with friends to remember that you became friends for a reason. You're connecting with them for a reason. And so with friendships, I dare you to say this that or the third, I dare you to express yourself in the way that you've been wanting to. Because a lot of times with friendships, what you'll find out is the people that are indeed your friends and care about you, they'll be there regardless. Even if that means like I need a moment from you. I need a moment, I don't like what was said, but you know that they're going to be there for you. And so it just gives information to inform your relationship.
Dr. Joy: Got it. What kind of work can we do to identify what's actually working in being effective in terms of our communication? Is there some kind of audit or assessment we can do periodically to kind of see like, okay, what's happening with communication?
Morgan: I think that can be a conversation in and of itself. That's not necessarily like a paper pencil audit that you can really do, but you can essentially do like a survey. How am I doing with communication? In the midst of conversations, you can ask what is it that you are hearing me say? So that you can make sure that your communication is clear and clarify where you need to clarify. And then if you're in a romantic relationship and you choose to do the state of the union meeting, that can be something that you address during that time. Just checking in, checking in with yourself and utilizing feedback from other people who are in your circle.
Dr. Joy: Something that comes up often, especially with women, is this fear of like starting conversations because they don't want to be rude or “I don't want to be harsh.” What kinds of things would you say for people for whom that is a struggle? Is there a way to have a difficult conversation without being rude or harsh?
Morgan: I think that's the interpretation. A lot of times in session, when my clients think that they're being mean, rude or harsh, it's like, no, you're just saying what you need to say and that's okay. I think it's how we define rude, mean, or harsh. But if we're sharing something that's unpleasant, just because you're speaking your mind doesn't mean that it's rude.
Dr. Joy: Yeah. Again, I appreciate you sharing the interpretation because what may feel rude or harsh to me may not feel at all rude or harsh to you. And so much of our interpreting how this person is going to take it, like you mentioned, there are conversations that have to be had even if they may be difficult.
Morgan: Absolutely. Being courageous in that regard, just going ahead and having the conversation to start with.
Dr. Joy: Right. Are there things, Morgan, about like depression or anxiety that impact the way that we might communicate?
Morgan: Absolutely. With anxiety, you may recognize that you could be more irritable and so maybe what you're trying to communicate doesn't come out as effective. And again, that goes back to being aware of what you're going through and then taking some responsibility, acknowledging I am irritable right now and this may not be the best time for me to have this conversation. Or noticing that you are in a depressive episode or you're really anxious and so going back to your coping skills that help you self-soothe.
Dr. Joy: Something else that comes up often is people cutting other people off. You notice this happens sometimes in meetings and it does feel like sometimes, especially if you're in like a mixed gender kind of situation, women tend to be cut off more or like people will take space from women in meetings. What kinds of tips would you offer to people who kind of are often getting cut off? Are there things that we can do to let people know that we are not done speaking?
Morgan: Yes. When you are speaking and someone interrupts, I think it's okay for you to go ahead and say, “If I could just finish my thought and I'll get back to your comment.” You could also recognize that a comment is being made but also recognize that you have not finished your statement as well. For some people, they would continue to complete their thought even though someone else is speaking as well. So if I am talking and someone is interrupting me, rather than taking a second and saying “just give me a quick second to finish my thought,” they might talk louder. “Hey, I'm still talking!” But that's more of an aggressive way of doing it. So just acknowledging, let me just finish this statement and I will address that in just a second. Or I'll get there, just give one second. Just acknowledging both sides of it.
Dr. Joy: Something else, Morgan. We know that the advent of technology and like there are so many opportunities for digital communication now. Email, direct messages, WhatsApp, like all of these different things. I’d love to hear from you about the difficulties with communication that maybe have popped up with all the advances in digital communication. And like what kinds of things should we be aware of when we're trying to communicate digitally?
Morgan: When you see it's going left, that should be an indication that this may be a conversation that we need to have either on the phone or face to face. A lot of times, going back to that avoidance, people struggle with having face to face conversations. Like they may go in separate rooms and then they're texting one another and then the text goes left because you are putting your own interpretation of someone's tone and facial expressions. You know, when you read text messages, you kind of read it in the voice of someone else. At least I do.
Dr. Joy: Yeah, I do too.
Morgan: So when you are starting to get off track with the conversation or when it's no longer serving you to use the written format, go ahead and end the conversation with a time that you can actually talk about a situation. That's similar in business: if you continue to go back and forth via email, “Err, let's pick up the phone so we can tie up loose ends if you have more questions like because maybe this is not as clear in this format.”
Dr. Joy: Got it. Are there some conversations that you just should not even approach unless you actually have time to like talk on the phone or do like a FaceTime or in person conversation?
Morgan: Yes. I feel like the harder conversations that cause an emotional charge, those are the ones that require more feedback. So more of a dialogue, more of a back-forth, those conversations need to happen face to face or over the phone. Like verbally.
Dr. Joy: Got it. There have been lots of conversations online about you know you need to have a conversation with like your best friend or your partner but you don't have time to have that conversation now. And so I do understand like getting a text that says we need to talk or like “I want to talk when we get home” can leave people spinning–like oh my gosh, what is this? What would be the best way to communicate there's something you want to talk about, but that maybe you don't have time to talk right now?
Morgan: Unless you give a segue into what you want the conversation to be about–hey, I've been thinking about meal prepping, I want to sit down and discuss that with you. Give a little...
Dr. Joy: Insight into what you want to talk about.
Morgan: Yeah, an insight into what you want to talk about. But otherwise, sometimes when you get that text message like “I want to talk,” you have to then go back to what's making me react right now. What's going on with me in this moment?
Dr. Joy: Right, got it. Thank you for that, Morgan. Are there any resources that you could share for people who want to like take their communication to the next level or dig a little deeper into some of the things that you've shared today?
Morgan: I like the Gottman Card Deck, it’s an app that you can utilize. It gives like different scenarios and different questions, helps you with reframing some things that you may want to talk about. And then also The Attachment Theory Workbook by Annie Chen. I think that's really great with discovering what your attachment style is. And then she gives very practical exercises to help explore your attachment, but then also how that attachment works with your partner's attachment. When I say partner, it could be your romantic partner, it could be your friend, anyone that's in close relation to you.
Dr. Joy: Got it. Thank you for that. Where can we follow your work and stay connected? What's your website as well as any social handles you'd like to share?
Morgan: I am RoyalPhoenixLS.com, that is my website. Instagram, I am @Royal_PhoenixLS. On Facebook, I am RoyalPhoenixLS.
Dr. Joy: Perfect. We'll be sure to include all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for chatting with us today, Morgan. I really appreciate it.
Morgan: Thank you so much for having me.
Dr. Joy: I’m so glad Morgan was able to share her expertise with us today. To learn more about her and her practice, be sure to visit the show notes at TherapyForBlackGirls.com/session247, and be sure to text two of your girls this episode right now. If you’re looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to check out our therapist directory at TherapyForBlackGirls.com/directory.
If you want to continue digging into this topic or just be in community with other sisters, come on over and join us in the Sister Circle. It’s our cozy corner of the internet designed just for black women. You can join us at Community.TherapyForBlackGirls.com. This episode was produced by Fredia Lucas and Ellice Ellis, and editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y’all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.