The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
Historically, Black women are disproportionately impacted by domestic violence. However, the pandemic has exacerbated violence and abuse toward Black women. Due to the health and financial challenges of COVID-19, many Black women have been isolated in their homes and unable to find safety from abusive partners. As we commemorate National Domestic Violence Awareness Month this month, I wanted to make sure you didn’t miss the critical conversation I had with Dr. Shanita Brown in 2019. Dr. Brown is a licensed professional counselor, speaker, educator and trainer in NC that fosters transformative and empowering dialogue about intimate partner violence & mental health wellness.
She and I chatted about how you can recognize the signs of domestic violence, why it’s important to understand domestic violence in the context of power and control as opposed to anger management, and how you can support a loved one who may be in a relationship with an abusive partner. Plus, Dr. Brown shared tons of incredible resources for anyone seeking additional help.
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Executive Producers: Dennison Bradford & Maya Cole Howard
Producers: Fredia Lucas, Ellice Ellis & Cindy Okereke
Session 278: ICYMI, What You Need to Know About Domestic Violence
Dr. Joy: Hey, y'all! Thanks so much for joining me for Session 278 of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after a word from our sponsors.
Dr. Joy: Historically, black women are disproportionately impacted by domestic violence. However, the pandemic has exacerbated violence and abuse towards black women. Due to the health and financial challenges of COVID-19, many black women have been isolated in their homes and unable to find safety from abusive partners. As we commemorate National Domestic Violence Awareness month this month, I wanted to make sure you didn't miss the critical conversation I had with Dr. Shanita Brown in 2019.
Dr. Brown is a licensed professional counselor, speaker, educator and trainer in North Carolina, that fosters transformative and empowering dialogue about intimate partner violence and mental health wellness. She and I chatted about how you can recognize the signs of domestic violence, why it's important to understand domestic violence in the context of power and control as opposed to anger management, and how you can support a loved one who may be in a relationship with an abusive partner. Plus, she shared tons of incredible resources for anyone seeking additional help. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share it with us on social media using the hashtag #TBGinSession or join us over in the Sister Circle to talk more in depth about the episode. You can join us at Community.TherapyForBlackGirls.com. Here's our conversation.
Dr. Joy: Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Brown.
Dr. Brown: Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Joy. It’s definitely an honor and privilege to be here with you.
Dr. Joy: I'm really happy you were able to join us because I think we really need to continue having this conversation around domestic violence. I think what happens a lot of times is that people aren't even always aware in their own relationships that there may be a presence of domestic violence. Can you tell us how somebody might even be able to recognize this?
Dr. Brown: Yes, that's a great question. What really defines these abusive relationships and tactics, really, it's a common thread of power and control. It’s this intentional pattern of behavior used by an abuser when one partner tries to maintain power and control over another partner. And so that looks like someone who may be extremely jealous, who a partner may be trying to check their cell phone, their social media or email. Or insistent that a partner texts when they arrive or when they leave for work every day. Or when you may hear someone saying “I feel like I'm walking on eggshells” around their partner. Isolation from your family and your friends, always feeling like they're afraid or appearing to be afraid. When they feel like they can't go to work, they can't go to school, they can't go to social events because they're afraid that it may upset their partner. These are really controlling tactics and these are red flags of domestic violence.
Dr. Joy: I think it's really important that you gave us such a variety of ways to recognize this because I think sometimes people just think it's physical so the person is hitting them. When obviously, abuse can be all of these things that you've named plus more, I'm sure.
Dr. Brown: Right. This domestic violence, and sometimes you may hear intimate partner violence, it can happen to anyone, Joy. It can happen to all cultures, all backgrounds, people who are married people who are unmarried, heterosexual, people in the LGBT community, wealthy, the poor, religious, nonreligious, all ethnicities. But the key takeaway here, like you're saying, is this power and control and it's physical violence, emotional abuse.
That emotional abuse is one where there are silent wounds, you can't see the emotional scars, and that causes just as much damage as physical abuse or sometimes more because of those lingering effects of emotional abuse.
Dr. Joy: Can you go in a little more depth about the emotional abuse, what that might look like?
Dr. Brown: The emotional abuse is that when people may say that I feel torn. Name calling. They begin to think that what they are hearing, they begin to think that that's part of who they are. It leads to mental health challenges, it leads to anxiety. There’s irrational thought pattern, it leads to depression, it leads to maladaptive or unhealthy coping strategies such as turning to substance abuse, things of that nature. That emotional abuse and emotional wounds is really damaging and I find that it’s much more damaging than physical abuse.
Dr. Joy: And I'm guessing it would also be probably a little harder to recognize.
Dr. Brown: It is hard to recognize because when you’re having a conversation, you can't see that wound. So if you're with someone, you may be sitting next to someone or maybe working or having a family member who is enduring domestic violence. You can't see that physical scar, but it's that name calling, that's the belittling, putting somebody down that they're enduring every day. And it could be for years that you endure emotional abuse. And it isn't what people say the physical abuse, but that emotional abuse that they are dealing with every day that is damaging to one’s psyche.
Dr. Joy: Dr. Brown, you also mentioned, I think something that also happens is that people aren't quite sure whether a behavior is their partner really caring about them and they’re concerned, or is it abuse? You’ve mentioned like having to text when you leave or when you get back from work in the evening. I could see some people saying like, oh, that is just my partner caring about me. How would you know whether something like that isn't a sign of abuse or whether it's just your partner being concerned?
Dr. Brown: This is a great question because you want to think of what is healthy and what is unhealthy. Again we have to examine, what is that thread, that pattern of abusive, and power and control behavior. That intentional pattern. You have to tell me who you're talking to. Or if I didn't text you, why you didn't text me? It's one thing to say, text me when you get to work because I care about your wellbeing right. But there's a difference of saying somebody that's very controlling, you need to text me every day or this is going to happen. Or you need to text me today because I'm very concerned or this may not happen. There’s that power, it’s that abusive intentional pattern of behavior. That's the difference between texting every day or just a check in.
Dr. Joy: So you're really looking, like you said, at the pattern. And if this is the only thing that's happening, then it could just be like a cause for concern. But if this is something that's present with the name calling and maybe some physical abuse, then you can more clearly see the picture.
Dr. Brown: Absolutely. Putting someone down because they didn't text or making someone feel bad about themselves. Or you're crazy because you didn't do this or you didn't text me or things like that. It's this pattern. You're gonna find that pattern. And a lot of times, people can't see the pattern and you have to point it out. You have to ask the question, what are you seeing? And then when you ask the question, what are you experiencing? What's happening in your relationship? And then people begin to say, wow, I never thought that this was a form of domestic violence.
Dr. Joy: Dr. Brown, has it been your experience that people will come into counseling with you to maybe figure out how they can work on the relationship with their partner, and then you're able to kind of show them this pattern?
Dr. Brown: Yes. I find quite often, when I am working with clients in my initial intake and doing a very thorough assessment, you know, what's happened in your relationship, you begin to ask the questions—what are you experiencing? Do you feel safe? Sometimes they don't feel safe. And maybe ask what are you experiencing, then what I find very helpful is showing people the power and control wheel which was developed by the Duluth model, which helps with people looking out that at the core of the wheel is power and control. And so you have coercion, you have threats, you have intimidation, you have economic abuse. And when people begin to look at the power or control, it resonates with them. They’ll be saying, wow, I am experiencing that.
When you ask the question, what are you experiencing that you see on that wheel? Oh, yeah, they do put me down. Or they do control what I do or they control what I wear or they limit my outside involvement or they're very jealous. So I do feel like I'm walking on eggshells. And then it clicks, that light bulb goes off for them and they say, wow, I never knew this was domestic violence. All this time, I just thought they loved me or they were trying to show me that they were concerned, and I never thought that this was domestic violence. It is very hard so you have to have tools to help people see that what you're describing isn't healthy.
Dr. Joy: Yeah. And I would imagine that that would be even more difficult for someone who maybe has come from a home where they've seen this with their parents or with their loved ones growing up. And they don't necessarily know that all relationships don't function in this way.
Dr. Brown: Absolutely. The first relationship, the first image of relationships starts at home. That sets up the relational template for people and so they begin to think this is normal, this is all I've ever known. This is what I've seen, as you've mentioned, Dr. Joy. But when they come in and say I want some help, I want to feel safe, I'm not really sure... I don't really want to end the relationship but maybe let's talk about this anger management. And you begin to educate them and they really understand that this is not an anger management issue, that this is an overall pattern of abusive and violent behavior, then they begin to really rethink what they're in. And sometimes they're not ready to leave immediately and that's okay.
Dr. Joy: Can you talk a little bit more about the distinction between this not being an anger management issue and the domestic violence?
Dr. Brown: I want people to really understand that abuse is not an anger management issue. People who are experiencing an anger management issue, they're gonna go off on their boss, they're gonna go off on their cousin, their friend or coworker or random person. But abuse is carefully targeted at one person. Again, it's that overall pattern of abusive and violent behavior and that is not an anger management issue. That's the difference. There are controlling behaviors that are really the biggest red flags that you look out for in relationships.
Dr. Joy: That is such an important distinction, Dr. Brown, because it also makes me think about how often you will hear people who have stories of being abused by their partners, but then everybody else in their life is like, what are you talking about? They're so nice, they're so charming, they're so XYZ. But it really goes to this crafting of a character where nobody else can kind of see what's going on inside the home.
Dr. Brown: Absolutely. And again, that's why domestic violence is not an anger management issue. It’s this control, this pattern of behavior. When you begin to talk to someone, you'd be able to recognize and hear. And they can tell you, well, it happened during this time, it happened again, it happened this time, it happened this time, but they always put me down or they make me feel guilty. Or sometimes they make me feel guilty about my children. Or they say that the abuse didn't happen, or they say that sometimes I caused something to make the abuse happen and that's never the case, but it's that pattern of behavior. Where we’ve got pattern of controlling behavior.
Dr. Joy: More from my conversation with Dr. Brown after the break.
Dr. Joy: A lot of what you're talking about is gaslighting, something that has kind of gotten more talk in I think recent months and is coming up in more conversations. Can you talk a little bit more about what gaslighting is and what that looks like in the relationship?
Dr. Brown: Yes. Gaslighting is when a partner will make the other partner thing that they're crazy, that it really didn't happen, that there's something that they're the cause of it, and maybe minimize what's happening. And that is really the form that power of control, that pattern. Beginning to think that maybe this didn't really happen. I didn't really hit them. They begin to think after a while that, you know, this really isn't abuse or I am crazy or there's something wrong with me or I'm making it up. And really, it is nothing really wrong with them but that's the manipulative behavior of gaslighting and what happens in that situation when one partner begins to think that, hey, I am somehow contributing to this or I am crazy. Or, you know, something is really wrong here or nothing's really wrong with me.
Dr. Joy: I want to hear if you can, Dr. Brown, a little bit more about the pattern or the course that this takes. Because it usually does not start off so obvious. An abuser wouldn't necessarily start off by saying you can't go to your mom's on the weekends or whatever. It usually starts much smaller and then progresses. Can you talk a little bit about what that progression looks like?
Dr. Brown: Yes. In doing the research of domestic violence, you may hear of the cycle of abuse or cycle of violence. And recent research has changed that there really isn't a cycle of violence. There really isn't one because no one gets into a relationship to say that they're in this cycle that’s somehow contributed to it. But what happens, you may see that an abuser may be nice at one point, what you may say like the honeymoon phase, and then it begins to escalate and then you may see a little bit more, just call it this gaslighting or this form of psychological manipulation. And then maybe sort of planting this doubt in the victim or survivor’s mind of what they are experiencing. Maybe them beginning to question their perception of the relationship. Then it begins to add a little bit more fuel to it and then it becomes very explosive. And then it repeats itself. So on one hand, it is a cycle; on one hand, it isn't. Because it's mainly this pattern of abusive behavior, if that makes sense, Dr. Joy.
Dr. Joy: What is the cycle piece that is not quite accurate?
Dr. Brown: The actual term of the cycle of violence, I would say.
Dr. Joy: Okay, gotcha. So the pattern is pretty consistent, but calling it a cycle isn't the most consistent anymore. Gotcha, okay. And so are there any warning signs or things that you should be looking out for kind of in the beginning phases of a relationship that may tip you off that this person may be abusive?
Dr. Brown: A partner who is extremely jealous. The isolation. Putting you down. I would say making a partner feel bad about themselves. Some of the name calling. Intimidation, destroying property. Somehow saying that, well, I wouldn't have done this if you would have just listened to me.
Dr. Joy: That difficulty taking accountability for any of your actions.
Dr. Brown: Absolutely. It is so important for people to understand that abuse is never your fault. It is never anything that you have done. It is important for the perpetrator or the abuser (sometimes the terms are used interchangeably), they are held accountable for their actions. A lot of times that doesn't happen and then we end at what we call a lot of victim blaming. What did you do? What were you wearing it? And it's never the case so we have to really change that to placing the accountability on where it belongs, and that’s the abuser.
Dr. Joy: And I want to hear your thoughts, Dr. Brown about why you think we jump to the victim blaming so often. Why is it so hard for us to believe that people could be being abused?
Dr. Brown: Me personally, I think because overall in society, we have this culture mindset where men are in control and they're the dominant gender and women don't have a voice. And so I think women aren't believed and so we’re always finding ways to look at what are women doing or what her partner’s doing in the relationship and not look at a way to kind of change that story. So it's important to look at what we're saying first. What is our response? When you hear about a situation, how do I respond in a way that is not victim blaming? A victim can never do anything to cause someone to hit someone. It's important to look at how do we hold each other accountable? And how we hold that perpetrator accountable for their behavior. And I think it's deeply rooted in our society, I really think it is.
Dr. Joy: Yeah. You already alluded to this a little bit, Dr. Brown, but another complicated part of this is someone does realize that they are in an abusive relationship and then maybe is trying to figure out whether they're going to stay in this relationship or not. A lot of times on the outside looking in, people are quick to say, well, why don't they just leave? Why don't they just get out? But of course, this is a very complicated, complex, kind of a decision. Can you talk with us a little bit about what that decision making process might look like?
Dr. Brown: Dr. Joy, this is a very good question. Thank you so much, because we are so quick to judge people. “I wouldn't have done that. I can't believe they’re still in that. I would have been gone.” But with domestic violence, it’s so complex. There are so many reasons why a victim will stay. There may be children involved. For economic reasons. They're actually afraid. I mean, there's a lot fear here and then if they think about leaving that rest of their lives to become more at risk for death. We think about financial support, children, poverty reasons, being their breadwinner, having nowhere else to go. Love is a reason why some people may stay, they think this is actually love. So it is not something so quick where we can pull them out. “Hey girl, hey guy, let's come on and get out of this relationship.” It is very risky. It is very deadly when we’re talking about leaving an abusive relationship. That has to be thought out, it has to be planned, and all things have to be considered when we're talking about leaving an abusive relationship. It is not easy.
Dr. Joy: Is the research still consistent in talking about how dangerous it is? Like that is the most dangerous time, when a partner decides to leave.
Dr. Brown: Mm-hmm. And it takes seven attempts. The research says it takes seven attempts. to try and leave before they have successfully left that relationship. Seven attempts. I want people to know it is not an easy situation and so I applaud people when they are trying to leave a situation or trying to take those steps. And you have to connect with people and connect with community resources who are trained to do this work in safety planning.
Dr. Joy: Can you talk about that a little bit? Like let's say I have made this decision to try to get out of this relationship, what kinds of things or resources do I need to connect with to try to figure out what my plan is going to be?
Dr. Brown: One, talking to a domestic violence agency or people who are trained in safety planning. I'm talking to a trusted family member who will provide support and not additional victim blaming. Or talking to faith-based communities that will offer support versus trying to tell you to stay in that relationship. You want to connect with people who will understand what you are going through and can help you safety plan. If you have children, collecting documents such as your birth certificates, social security cards. Having money in a separate account. All this takes time. Having a night backpack for your children and pack for yourself and having a plan in place when you're getting ready to leave that situation. Definitely connecting with a domestic violence agency to help with safety planning.
Dr. Joy: And most counties have this, correct? Like will have some kind of agency that is designed to help with this type of effort.
Dr. Brown: Absolutely. Every state has a coalition for domestic violence and sexual violence, and then connecting you with that agency for safety planning. That will be the first place I will send in working with a survivor. Connecting them. I’m doing the work as well, but also connecting them with working collaboratively. It's a collaborative effort in safety planning. And it may take several sessions. It may not get done in that one initial session. It’s going to take several until that person will say I'm ready. And having them empowering them to make the decision.
Dr. Joy: And how can friends and family be supportive at this point?
Dr. Brown: This is another great question too. Because oftentimes, I hear people say my family don't get me. Or my pastor told me to stay. And so, one, we have to always be aware of the complexity of domestic violence, that it is not easy for a person to leave. We want to always be concerned about their wellbeing, about their safety. I would tell people, if you're concerned, say, hey, I'm concerned about your wellbeing. Instead of trying to say you need to leave. And so if you're telling them you need to leave, you're doing the same thing that an abuser is doing. You’re telling them, you're controlling them. But walk with them. I am here to support you. I may not know what this is like, but your wellbeing is a concern for me. I love you, I care about you. Here is the hotline. I am here to walk with you when you are ready. That's very supportive to helping someone in that situation. Getting them flyers or brochures, connecting them to the 800 hotline or to a shelter, to an agency. But never go in or leading with trying to tell somebody what to do in that situation. Because you become part of what they're already dealing with, is a controlling situation.
Dr. Joy: Yeah. And I have heard people talk about like it's just really important for you to be there. And to let them know, if you ever decide to leave, I got you. That even maybe family and friends can become a part of the safety planning, if there is a go time.
Dr. Brown: Right, and just be there to listen. Just be there to listen and be available. I'm here. Nonjudgmental environment, create a safe space.
Dr. Joy: More from my conversation with Dr. Brown after the break.
Dr. Joy: Dr. Brown, can you talk about what therapy might look like for somebody maybe who is either deciding whether they're going to leave the relationship or maybe somebody who has left the relationship? What kinds of things might you be working with them on in therapy?
Dr. Brown: It just depends on how they show up in that session. It shows at what stage they are in. They could be that I'm thinking about leaving or I didn't know I'm dealing with this and now I've learned the term. A lot of times, again, it goes back to educating, education on what domestic violence is. And then providing them with the tools such as the power and control wheel. Helping them to identify that things that they have been experiencing, it resonates with them. And then it may talk about they may be dealing with anxiety, they may be dealing with depression. They may talk about, so how have you been coping with this domestic violence? You may begin to hear things such as when I began to drink more. Or I'm doing some other things that are not so helpful. So it just depends on how they show up in the session and when they’re ready to leave the relationship. But when they are ready, we begin to talk about safety planning. And that has several sessions in regards to taking that step to safety planning.
Dr. Joy: I think that's important to pay attention to as well because I think some people may be worried that if they go to a therapist and they are in a domestic violence situation, the whole therapy will be focused on getting you to leave the relationship.
Dr. Brown: Absolutely.
Dr. Joy: When that is not the case. Or at least it should not be the case.
Dr. Brown: It shouldn't be. But it depends, Dr. Joy, it depends. Let's pause. It depends. If someone is an active... If they are in a situation, we should always be concerned about their safety and wellbeing. So if someone says I'm afraid, what is happening to my children, then it begins to work with them or should we have to report. Or report an issue, thinking about the wellbeing of the children, or walking them through. So it just depends also linking that person to a shelter. Plenty of times I've said, let's talk about ways to talk about your safety. And sometimes they will say, I'm going to go to the shelter, and the shelter will work with them. But it's always thinking about the safety first of that particular client when they're presenting it.
Dr. Joy: Right, of course.
Dr. Brown: And so sometimes it's helpful to talk about relational patterns. The upbringing, and what did you see? A lot of times, I've spent working six months with people just thinking about looking at relationship, relationship patterns. And then they get to the point of, okay, what do you want for yourself? And making note of, I may have seen this, maybe this is all that I have known, but I'm ready to change that narrative, I want better. And understanding they're not to blame for that. It's just a process. It’s just process so just take one day at a time, one session at a time. And so when people are ready to leave, we are empowering them, we are giving them the tools to do that and make that decision empowering them.
Dr. Joy: And I'm curious, also kind of going back to your comments about the emotional abuse. Because I would imagine that that would be some significant work probably in therapy, when people have been made to believe or not even trust their own thoughts because there has been gaslighting or really taking a hit on their self-worth. So what kind of work might you be able to do with them in therapy to really target some of those concerns?
Dr. Brown: I have utilized a variety of blends of cognitive behavioral therapy, really helping with the thought patterns, irrational thinking. And also I have used some relational culture theory, just helping them with understanding growth fostering relationships. And understanding how, especially for African American women, how systems of oppression have contributed to our multiple experiences of oppression and discrimination and racism. How they're more at risk for experiencing domestic violence. For example, if you're going to say we're going to refer them to an agency, it's a possibility that they may get discriminated against because of intersecting identities. And these are real things that we have to understand, why black woman are such at risk for domestic violence when it comes to systemic oppression and racism. And the complexity of it and how domestic violence shows up for them compared to a white woman.
Dr. Joy: Yeah. And I know, in working even just with students, there is sometimes a hesitation. Like if there's going to be a report made or that you have to look at that too, because it feels like a betrayal almost of the community. Like, oh, I'm gonna put this person in jail or something. So even that becomes a bigger priority than their own concern and welfare.
Dr. Brown: Right. And that goes back to the result of historical oppression and present-day racism and how African American women may be less likely to report or seek help. Awareness of discrimination and the negative stereotype of how African American men have been treated, dealing with police brutality. These are all factors and that can discourage a woman from seeking help for domestic violence and then that contributes to the high rate of domestic violence. They're not going to report. “I don't want that to happen. I don't want to contribute to how black men are treated because of what I have endured.” So they somehow take that responsibility on. They don't report.
Dr. Joy: What are some of your favorite resources related to this topic, Dr. Brown, for anybody who needs to read more about this or is interested in learning more about this?
Dr. Brown: One of my favorite resources is a book. Again, goes back to the education piece, it’s a book called Why Does He Do That? By Lundy Bancroft. I have found that book very enlightening. But also my clients and people that I serve have found that, “Oh my god, this book has really enlightened me. It has really opened up my eyes to what I am experiencing and there's a name for it now. I didn't know this.” But we have to understand the shame and the stigma attached to domestic violence the same as we have with mental illness. And so there's a lot of shame attached to it. But when they begin to read the book or when we have the power and control wheel, they say, hey, now I feel educated. Now I feel empowered. Now I can begin to proceed with taking my voice back.
But a lot of times, it's about education. It's about reading, it's about helping you understand what you have endured. So that's one of my very first books that I go to. And then one of my favorite podcasts, I will say, is A Date With Darkness by Dr. Natalie Jones. And she is a licensed therapist who specializes in working with people who are trying to heal from relational abuse. And her work with narcissists and narcissistic behavior. And I find that as a good tool for people to really get education on tips on how to heal and develop healthy relationships. We are all relational beings and we all desire relational contact and connection. But I think it's important to learn about patterns and learn how to have a healthy relationship.
Dr. Joy: Perfect. Any other resources or websites that you want to share?
Dr. Brown: Yes. A website that I go to is the National Center on Violence Against Women in the Black Community, also known as Ujima. And I find that very helpful because they have a strong voice on looking at and taking a stand on violence against women in the black community. And also, I will say A Call to Men, which is an international violence against women prevention organization that really promotes healthy manhood, ending violence against women and girls. These are two resources and they provide a wealth of information for the African American community.
Dr. Joy: Perfect. And where can we find you online? What's your website as well as any social media handles you'd like to share?
Dr. Brown: My website is www.DrShanitaBrown.com. And you can find me on Twitter @DrSBrown. Facebook and Instagram as well, I’m @DrShanitaBrown.
Dr. Joy: Perfect. And of course, we will include all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Brown. I really appreciate it.
Dr. Brown: Thank you so much, Dr. Joy, for having me. It's been a pleasure.
Dr. Joy: Thank you so much for tuning in for this conversation. To learn more about Dr. Brown's work and to check out the resources she shared, visit the show notes at TherapyForBlackGirls.com/session278. And don't forget to text two of your girls and tell them to check out the episode right now. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check out our therapist directory at TherapyForBlackGirls.com/directory. And if you want to continue digging into this topic or just be in community with other sisters, come on over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the internet designed just for black women. You can join us at Community.TherapyForBlackGirls. This episode was produced by Fredia Lucas and Ellice Ellis, and editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y’all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.