The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
In the recent news cycle, there have been a handful of videos trending that participate in Anti-Fat rhetoric. These pieces of media work to diminish the fat acceptance movement utilizing scare tactics like shame and ridicule under the guise of “tough love.” In actuality, these methods of behavior are rooted in fatphobia and highlight how much body shaming has been indoctrinated into all of us.
To discuss Anti-Fat bias more at length, this week I’m joined by Author, Advocate, and Yoga Teacher Jessamyn Stanley. As a Fat Black Femme navigating the predominantly white, able-bodied, cisgender world of Yoga, Jessamyn has spent her career breaking down barriers in the wellness industry and showing that all bodies are worthy. In our conversation, we discuss the importance of reclaiming the word Fat, the yoga industrial complex, the power of listening to the teacher that lives inside us all, and how practicing self-care and self-acceptance is an act of service to the community around you.
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Executive Producers: Dennison Bradford & Maya Cole Howard
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Session 294: Understanding Anti-Fat Bias
Dr. Joy: Hey, y'all! Thanks so much for joining me for Session 294 of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after a word from our sponsors.
Dr. Joy: In recent news cycles, there have been a handful of videos trending that participate in anti-fat rhetoric. These pieces of media work to diminish the fat acceptance movement, utilizing scare tactics like shame and ridicule under the guise of tough love. In actuality, these methods of behavior are rooted in fat phobia and highlight how much body shaming has been indoctrinated into all of us. To discuss anti-fat bias more at length, today I'm joined by author, advocate, and yoga teacher, Jessamyn Stanley. As a fat black femme navigating the predominantly white, able bodied cisgendered world of yoga, Jessamyn has spent her career breaking down barriers in the wellness industry and showing that all bodies are worthy. A two-time author of Every Body Yoga and Yoke: My Yoga of Self-Acceptance, Jessamyn is a living testimony of what happens when you make space for yourself and others to be seen, heard and understood.
In our conversation, we discussed the importance of reclaiming the word fat, the yoga industrial complex, the power of listening to the teacher that lives inside all of us, and how practicing self-care and self-acceptance is an act of service to the community around you. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share it with us on social media using the hashtag #TBGinSession or join us over in the Sister Circle to talk more in depth about the episode. You can join us at Community.TherapyForBlackGirls.com. Here's our conversation.
Dr. Joy: I am very excited Jessamyn, thank you for joining us today.
Jessamyn: Thank you for having me. I'm really honored to be here with you, Dr. Joy.
Dr. Joy: Thank you. Thank you so much. I want to start by hearing from you that there has been so much conversation around the word fat and a lot of your work is really about reclaiming the word fat. Can you tell us about that?
Jessamyn: I think that so much of what keeps us feeling marginalized and feeling small within ourselves comes from not owning the language that is used to hurt us. And I think especially when it comes, for me, for the word fat, it feels really important. Because as a fat person, to own that word fat means to let go of the ways that society has defined the word fat, which don't actually have anything to do with what it means to be fat. A lot of the silent definition of that word, it's ideas like stupid or ugly or bad. Fundamentally not good, I think is the way that we are taught to believe that fat should be considered. I definitely have bought into this so much in my life and have felt like that is the worst thing that I could be called, to be called fat. And I see it all the time. Children, adults, so many people afraid to use that word and to own it.
But when you own it and you say, yes, I'm fat, what does fat actually mean? Fat means large. Okay, I'm large. That doesn't mean that I'm not worthwhile, it doesn't mean that I don't deserve to exist. So if it's okay to be fat (let's suppose that it's okay to be fat) then what can I do now? Where can my life take me? What can I own in my own being? How am I allowed to see myself when I accept all of who I am? And so I think that reclamation of the word fat - and not curvy, not big bodied, not plus size - really owning fat, you're not just decolonizing yourself, but you're making space for society to change as well. For us to look at each other differently, yes, but also for fat phobic standards and practices to be reevaluated and for us to live together in more harmony. And ultimately, I think that it's for healing on a collective scale.
Dr. Joy: I completely agree with you. Jessamyn, when I think about like the people in this space doing this work, you come to the top of mine, I feel like you are one of the pioneers in this space. And I wonder if you'd be comfortable sharing how you even got into this work and what kinds of things have helped you to kind of reclaim that word for yourself and for the community.
Jessamyn: One of the things that has helped me is knowing that I feel like I'm one of the young bloods on this trail. I feel like I'm living in a legacy of so many people. That acceptance is something that has been championed for a long time in many different ways and I think that we're coming to a place where we can start to see the long reaching effects and impact. Because when I first started sharing my yoga practice on social media, getting on 10 years ago now, I started doing that because I really did not see a lot of people who looked like me practicing yoga. In general, not just online. And in the time since then, I have seen such tremendous change, not just in the number of people who are living their best lives… It's not even about yoga, really, it's people just being inspired to do their thing and be happy. But also, just in the general conversation about it. It has become a much more mainstream topic, and I think that if you look at advertising and compare it to 10 years ago, it is significantly more diverse and accessible overall. And I think that can be tied to fat acceptance and specifically to the waves of activism on the internet. But I do think that there is a lot of… white washing is the first phrase that comes to mind for me. But I think there's still plenty of work for us to do and I think that it always starts on the individual level. And I think that what I'm noticing more now is people wanting to jump on the bandwagon. And that's great, awesome, but when you jump on the bandwagon, know that that ride starts within your heart and really accepting the fat phobia that lives within you.
Dr. Joy: Jessamyn, I wonder if you can talk a little bit about some of the ways we may be kind of practicing or thinking in fat phobic ways that we may not even be aware of.
Jessamyn: Oh my goodness, thank you so much for asking. I think that is something that it's hard to notice. Like I feel like it's really hard to see the ways that we are harmful to ourselves, the things that we say to ourselves. And I think that what was really helpful for me was starting a practice in which I had to look at myself. That is something that, frankly, it was really challenging for me. There are whole years of my life where I don't have any pictures of myself, like barely any, because I thought that I didn't deserve to be photographed. And it doesn't mean sharing the photos with anybody, it doesn't mean anything but just looking at yourself. And I do think it's different than looking in the mirror. I think that when you take an image of yourself and you look at it, and the first thing that happens for me, is that I start talking cat shit about myself. I'm like, look at my chins, look at my arms, oh my belly, all these things that are running in a tape in my head every time that I look at my reflection. But I can't see it until I pause. And so you take that moment to pause and then you say, is that really how I feel? Do I really feel like there's something wrong with my chins? Is there really something wrong with my belly? So that's always been the first step for me.
It's really cool to also in that place, write down those ideas and to really engage with them. And see it written down and see like in my own penmanship, is that true to me? Does that really matter to me? Because I think that sometimes we're not having that actual conversation with ourselves about how it feels. And I want to give a more specific example, because this is something that happens to me literally every day, but I noticed it pretty early on, in my yoga practice, especially. I would exercise really hard and then I would want to go eat, and I would just want to eat like everything. I would like go to Whole Foods and like put my food on my plate and I’d just be thinking, judging myself. Judging the things that I was going to eat. And it wasn't until I literally stopped and said, wow, is that something that I really think or is that something that I think I should think? Am I thinking about the person who's standing across from me, wondering if they're looking at my food and wondering what I should be eating? Maybe I've inspired them to get macaroni and cheese, but how do I even know? Why am I projecting my ideas? But it takes that stopping and just actually asking the question.
So I do think that having a practice where you literally have to look at yourself is really helpful. But just as a general practice, that can be used in other parts of your life, too. I think more common is when you're sharing space with loved ones or with friends, partners, it's always with family members and friends that it's the hardest to really look at the ways that we're shaming ourselves. Let's say you get dressed in an outfit and you're like, I love this outfit, I'm feeling so good. And then you go around your friends or your family and then all of a sudden you don't love your outfit anymore. And now you're not good enough, and why did I even think that I should wear this? And before you go down the spiral, to just say, wow, is this really how I feel or is this how I think that someone else is feeling? That as the first step, I think is crucial.
But then I think what happens as a byproduct of that is looking critically at the people who are around you and what do they make you feel. I think that we don't always notice the impact that our loved ones really have on us. And that if you are spending time with people who they themselves are fat phobic or hate themselves really fundamentally, that's what they're offering to you as well. And maybe offering it with sincerity and love and deep authenticity, but that energy is palpable. And it's just important to note the feeling. Not even saying that like you shouldn't spend time with your mother, your siblings or your lovers, your domestic partner, your spouse, your friends - just acknowledging that you are separate from them and that how you feel is most important. That feels like the way to really start to notice the body shaming loop that lives inside of all of us. And I think there's a thing where it's like it's only for some people or this is a fat people issue. No, this is everybody.
Dr. Joy: Recently, it feels like there have been at least a handful of videos that talk about the whole fat acceptance movement and people kind of being comfortable with their bodies with wherever they are. And talking about how that promotes not great health or, are we leading people down the wrong path? And so what do you feel like people are missing in this argument?
Jessamyn: I think that what people are missing is that if you start from a place of self-love and self- acceptance, you are able to go much further than if you start from a place of shame and hatred. A lot of rhetoric around health is about shaming and trying to shame people into changing their bodies and caring about their health with scare tactics, fear, and it's just not effective for long-term change. It doesn't make people healthier, it doesn't make big change. And I do think that we, as a society, need to have a deeper conversation around health, and I don't believe that shame and hatred is the way to get there.
Dr. Joy: Yeah, I completely agree with you. I think a lot of people jump on this tough love bandwagon, but it's not super effective. Like you mentioned, it doesn't lead to long lasting changes.
Jessamyn: Yeah. I do think that there is so much that we need to discuss about access to information, about access to healthy food, about trauma, about long-standing systemic problems in our society. But I think that the short argument of fat is bad, you're bad if you're fat, it just doesn't make change.
Dr. Joy: More from my conversation with Jessamyn after the break.
Dr. Joy: Jessamyn, something that I think about a lot and you kind of brought it to mind when you said we don't want to talk about curvy and body positive and all of that stuff. I often wonder, do you think that in the black community, we have struggled with fat acceptance in the same ways? Because I'm thinking about just the women in our families typically are larger. And so to me, it doesn't feel like historically there was a concern around fat acceptance, although it feels like there is now. I'm wondering if you could help me tease out my thoughts here.
Jessamyn: I am so grateful to be on Therapy for Black Girls so that we can really talk about this. I grew up in the South. My mother's fat, my aunts are fat, my grandmother was fat, everybody, it's just a part of our lives. I don't remember anybody using the word fat, but I definitely know that I understood them to be beautiful. They, though, I know now, did not see themselves as beautiful in the way that I just assumed that they were. And I think that really what has happened is that we are all so susceptible to patriarchal white supremacist beauty standards, and that those have seeped in. And I think that, especially in the age of social media, wherein those standards are often heralded even more than they ever have been, I think that's why it's a topic of conversation now in the black community. To your point, what it means to be a strong, powerful black person has never not meant being large. That has always been a piece of the puzzle. So I think it's the impact of white supremacy. And I also think that the body acceptance movement and fat acceptance have really been on the backs of black women, truly. And black creators especially. And also, I would say, black sex workers specifically.
Dr. Joy: Thank you for helping me tease that out a little bit. So I do want to spend some time talking about these incredible books that you have written. Your first book was Every Body Yoga, so I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about that for people who maybe haven't checked it out, and to talk about how your own yoga practice then led to you giving us this offering of the book.
Jessamyn: I wrote Every Body Yoga because I had so many people reaching out to me asking, how do I start practicing yoga? What mat should I get? Where should I go? I was like, why are you asking me? There's literally so many resources about yoga. I was like, you should just type in how do I start practicing yoga? And then I realized that if you do that, there is so much conflicting information, it's confusing. Should people who are not South Asian even be practicing yoga? What are the lines here? And so I wrote Every Body Yoga so that anyone who has that question of like, how do I start practicing yoga can just open up that book. Literally get it anywhere that books are sold. You can go from the first page to practicing downward facing dog by the end. It lays out the practice in such a way where it's accessible to anyone who needs yoga in their life.
Something I think that gets in the way of starting a yoga practice is feeling like I don't have the right tools or I'm not flexible enough, or how do I make space and time for this in my life? And I really found my yoga practice through trauma. My yoga practice really intensified after my aunt passed away. I think that a lot of times people think that if you were really into yoga, maybe you are like really flexible, like a gymnast or something and you have all of this excess energy. I find that if you're really into yoga, something bad happened where you're like trying to work it out and figure out what happened. So I think, for me, the biggest thing to really intensify it was leaning into my pain and letting that lead the way.
I started practicing yoga at home because I could not afford to practice yoga in studios and that's something that I think there are a lot of barriers to entry for a yoga practice often, or perceived barriers to entry. But really what Every Body Yoga offers is the idea that you don't need to go out to a studio, you can definitely practice online classes, you can do whatever you want. But if you solidify a home practice and start to listen to the teacher that lives inside of you, then you can carry that practice through every part of your life, through every moment, every up, every down. And it will allow you to come home to the fact that life is changed, that there's always change, and that it's okay for that change to be there.
Dr. Joy: Your newest book, Yoke, is My Yoga of Self-Acceptance. I would love for you to first start by talking with us about the title. Why that title? What is yoke?
Jessamyn: I realized way after the book came out that yoke sounds like woke yoga, like running those ideas together. I had never even considered that. I started writing Yoke really while I was writing Every Body Yoga because I realized that in Every Body Yoga, I really wasn't talking about all of what yoga is. I was talking about like how to get into yoga postures. But really the meat and potatoes of the yoga practice happens within yourself, after you are practicing whatever postures you're going to practice. And for me, that has meant engaging with the hard edges of my identity. I think of it as the yoga of everyday life, but the yoga that lives at the intersection of our identities, the cross sections. Yoke, I thought of it as my ratchet millennial American translation of the word yoga. Yoga literally means to yoke. It means to draw together, to bring together. Union.
And so I always think of yoga, especially the yoga of everyday life as being yoking. That you're just bringing together things that do not make sense. And it's like, how are these things supposed to go together? How does capitalism and teaching yoga go together? That don’t seem like that matches, but it needs to, so we need to yoke. What does it mean to slut-shame yourself? That is a hard edge, that is a cross section, what does that mean? What does it mean to practice yoga as an American? Let’s bring these things together. So Yoke is all about bringing together the parts of yourself that cause conflict, that cause grief, that make it hard to accept yourself. But ultimately, we yoke to find acceptance, to find the union, to find harmony. And so truly, the purpose of the book is to bring you to a place of self-acceptance, where it's okay to be messy and it's okay to have made a mistake.
Dr. Joy: You touched on this a little bit just now, but I would love to hear. Because in the book, you talk a lot about the American yoga complex. Can you break that down for us a little bit more?
Jessamyn: Oh, my goodness. The yoga industrial complex, I just think of it as this machine that is really about capitalism, it is about commerce. And that's a lot of what America is. It's built on white supremacy and that shows up in the American yoga experience so much and in the yoga industrial complex. And then that has become the standard by which we judge a yoga practice. What does it look like? What clothes are you wearing? What retreat did you go on? What studio do you practice at? And that really has nothing to do with the yoking, the bringing together of the hard parts, the acceptance of identity. And there's so much to be learned when we take a step back from the yoga industrial complex and just lean into the practice. Mainly that we have an opportunity. Again, I'm always thinking about how can we be using our individual experiences toward the greater good. That the practice of self-care and self-acceptance is really an act of service to others. And so much of what our collective yoga practice offers the world is healing. Self-acceptance on a global scale is an opportunity for us to all transform. It's an opportunity for us to move as a society from an obsession with fear.
Right now we're in a moment of deep fear and panic - everyone worried constantly. And for us to start to move into a place where compassion and love are our motivators, that requires this individual practice of acceptance. And so, the yoking and the yoga industrial complex, I think all roads lead to the same place. While I am very critical of the yoga industrial complex, very critical of the American yoga practice, I think that ultimately, it does lead us forward and does lead us. Even in the foibles, even in the hypocrisy, often, even in the xenophobia, often, that there is an opportunity for us to hear each other better and to be more present in this moment. But yeah, I think it's something also that people are afraid to talk about because of fear of being wrong or getting the wrong answer or being part of the problem. But I think that there's no way to be a part of the solution without accepting where you are.
Dr. Joy: Isn't that such a weird irony? Like people are so afraid to talk about it because they don't want to be a part of the problem, but then not talking about it is actually the problem.
Jessamyn: Exactly right, literally, and it’s in so many things.
Dr. Joy: More from my conversation with Jessamyn after the break.
Dr. Joy: You've also been really vocal about talking about your experiences as a fat femme in the yoga community. Can you say a little bit more about what that has been like and how you've kind of taken care of yourself and managed to keep going with everything that has happened?
Jessamyn: What my experience as a fat femme in the predominantly white, able bodied, cisgender yoga world, what it has taught me is that so many of us are operating from a place of fear. And that to see someone embody and live in a way that is counter to what society has told us… Society has always said that being fat certainly is just bad and you should not be doing that in general, but especially fat in athletic environments. Yoga is often categorized as, I think of it as spirituality ultimately, but it's very often labeled as fitness. So within the fitness industry, there's a lot of hardline fat phobia. And when you add black to fat, that means that there is like 0.0 respect.
There is the semblance of respect, it is tokenism, it is fetishization and that is something that I have experienced extensively. And it's one of the things that has come along with standing on this platform. I have had incredible opportunities to be a part of campaigns with so many brands that have global reach, so that my physical form has been on the side of buildings and billboards in countries literally all over the world. And that has really made me think a lot about what it means to be fetishized and to be tokenized, to live as a token. And what visibility means and what accessibility means and the opportunity for change that comes through that, and the opportunity for other people to see themselves and to feel recognized and important. And that is really my biggest takeaway, that what's most important is the collective and that if there's an opportunity for even one other person to feel less alone, than that is an opportunity worth taking.
But I would say that in general, especially working with my community, The Underbelly, it is a yoga community where you can practice yoga with me all over the world at any time of day online. Being in that space as an entrepreneur, and as a fat black femme in an industry where white centric beauty standards are the norm, it really feels like a call to action. I think about Fannie Lou Hamer, I think about Rosa Parks, I think about my grandma, I think about the legacy, I think about the importance of us standing up and being ourselves. And doing it scared. Doing it while not waiting for solid ground to move forward and knowing that there's a brighter day ahead.
Dr. Joy: Thank you for sharing that. Something else that you’ve shared, and I was very excited to see this. You shared on your Instagram that you had used our therapist directory to connect with a therapist. Can you say a little bit about how therapy has helped you both with self-acceptance, but also as a part of your work? Like you're talking about being visible and all of this groundbreaking work that you're doing that, of course, need some support. So how has therapy been useful to you in that way?
Jessamyn: I have to tell you that this literally is why I was so excited to come on the show because Therapy for Black Girls has been so influential in my life, even prior to using the service myself. I know that it was a huge part of how my best friend was able to find her therapist and her therapy practice is why my therapy practice began. So just starting from that place, I'm so grateful.
What ended up happening is that I'd been to therapy a couple of times in the past, not enjoyed it for a variety of reasons, but I came to a place in my life last year where I was really struggling to bring together the different pieces of my life. It was right after Yoke came out and I was going into a huge transition in my life where I was scaling my businesses, literally have this book out, and then at the exact same time my partner I had been living with… I had two partners, I'm polyamorous. And this is something that if you're interested in polyamory, I have a podcast called Dear Jessamyn where we talk about polyamory and what it means to be in a polyamorous relationship.
But at that time, I was living in a house with two of my partners, one of whom I had been living with for almost 10 years, and we were deciding to separate. Not to separate in partnership but to stop living together physically. And then on top of that, me and my creative partner were moving into an RV to start living on the road. And all of those things coinciding at the same week of the book launch, my friend was like, do you know therapy? Have you heard of it? I think you should try it. So I started seeing a therapist and she was so… I do not know this past year how I would have made it to this place, had it not been for that practice of just really required self-reflection. Like that’s just what we’re gonna do today. It's for an hour, and we're just gonna reflect. That as a practice was very new to me because I had not really valued the connection, just with another human being, of them receiving my truth and reflecting it back to me.
So my partner and I were full time RVing and we finally landed in Northern California. And when we got to Northern California and it became clear that I was gonna stay here for a while, my therapist who was based in my home state of North Carolina, she suggested that I find a therapist in the area closer to me. She recommended Therapy for Black Girls, though I would say that it was gonna be… l feel like if you're black and femme, this is where I'm going. But I love being able to filter, especially as a queer person. I'm very kinky as a polyamorous person, and polyamorous with long standing relationships. It was really important to me to find a therapist who was comfortable with that. And what I found was that all the different pieces of me could also be pulled into that as well. That I could find a therapist who speaks in astrology the way that I speak in astrology, and who respects tarot and ancient practices. And also who, as a creator, can help me through expressive arts therapy, really find the modalities to communicate my truth so that I can do that self-reflection. And I think that as an entrepreneur who wears so many different hats, that being able to just take a hat off and look at it all the way around, that has been really, really helpful. What it has brought to my life truly is beyond what I think words could easily express.
Dr. Joy: I love that. I'm so happy that you were able to connect with that person. Because that is what we would love to hear, right, people having these kinds of transformative experiences because of therapy. So I appreciate you sharing that.
Jessamyn: I appreciate you. I am so grateful, truly.
Dr. Joy: Thank you. Who are some of the other fat voices and leaders that have helped you to kind of paint the world that you want to see?
Jessamyn: There are so many people out here doing this work right now and I'm so grateful to be in community with all of them. But I always feel like when I think about the people who, had it not been for them, I would not have even been on this road, especially as a yoga teacher and as a black woman, I think about Dianne Bondy and the work that she has done as a yoga teacher. Even before I started practicing yoga, I remember seeing pictures of her and just feeling so empowered and so grateful. Because really, it's not even about speaking, it's not about rhetoric, it's not about trying to tell anybody else what to do. It's literally just being visible in your own body and doing your thing unapologetically. She was so inspirational for me.
Also Anna Guest-Jelley who is the founder of Curvy Yoga, I would not be doing any of this without her. But when I first started exploring that acceptance and that positivity, I was drawn to the work of Marianne Kirby and Lesley Kinzel. They used to do this podcast back in the day called Two Whole Cakes, and they have a book called Two Whole Cakes. Also, Jes Baker, The Militant Baker. She has written extensively about fat acceptance. And Virgie Tovar as well. There are so many people who have just written books that are their own experience, it's not really about trying to create a system for anyone else to follow. I think the power and the impact for me has been through the personal lives of people who have decided to stop feeling disempowered by the world around them, and who have recognized the power that lives within them. And I don't know where I would be or who I would be without them.
Dr. Joy: Sounds like some great people to look up, so we'll definitely be sure to include links to their resources in the show notes. As we prepare to close, Jessamyn, I would love it if you could share some morning mantras that you can share with our community, that can really help them to practice in the morning to take good care of themselves.
Jessamyn: The first mantra that I think of is from a song by Sia called The Church of What's Happening Now. In it, she says throw away yesterday, today is a brand-new day. And I think of that every day. That you just restart, it's not a big deal. And even in the middle of the day, in that moment where it's like I cannot go forward. In that moment, saying throw away yesterday. Throw away that past moment. Just today is the day.
And I often find myself saying I am enough. I am enough. Saying it as slowly as possible, ramping it up to say it faster, just over and over again throughout the day. Especially in those moments where there's a question of is this enough? Am I doing enough? To remember I'm always enough. Whatever it is that I'm bringing to the table, it is enough. I am enough.
Dr. Joy: Beautiful. Those feel like great ones to put on our sticky notes in our bathroom windows or in the mirrors to remind ourselves. Jessamyn, where can we stay connected with you and all the incredible things that you are doing? What is your website, as well as any social media handles you'd like to share?
Jessamyn: You can find me on social media @MyNameIsJessamyn, and you can find me on Twitter @JessamynStan. But you can find my books, you can find my podcast, you can find The Underbelly which is also at TheUnderbelly.com and @TheUnderbellyYoga, you can find all the resources about me at JessamynStanley.com.
Dr. Joy: Perfect. Well, thank you so much for sharing with us today, Jessamyn. I really appreciate it.
Jessamyn: Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Joy.
Dr. Joy: I'm so glad Jessamyn was able to join us today. To learn more about her and the incredible work that she's doing, be sure to visit the show notes at TherapyForBlackGirls.com/session294. And don't forget to text two of your girls right now and tell them to check out the episode.
If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check out our therapist directory at TherapyForBlackGirls.com/directory.
And if you want to continue digging into this topic or just be in community with other sisters, come on over and join us in the Sister Circle. It’s our cozy corner of the internet designed just for black women. You can join us at Community.TherapyForBlackGirls.com. This episode was produced by Fredia Lucas and Ellice Ellis, and editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.