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Session 130: The Challenges of Black Women in Leadership

The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a Licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible version of ourselves.

This week, we’re digging into some of the particular challenges that come with being a Black woman in a leadership role. For this conversation I was joined by Yunetta Smith, LPC-MHSP, NCC. Yunetta and I chatted about how to manage perfectionism and burnout as a leader, concerns related to connecting authentically with others, and the importance of crafting a self care routine as a leader.

Resources Mentioned

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Elevation Church podcast

Woman Evolve podcast

Where to Find Yunetta

https://springforthcounseling.org/

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Read Full Transcript

Dr. Joy: 00:11 Welcome to the therapy for black girls podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at therapyforblackgirls.com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for relationship with a licensed mental health professional.

Dr. Joy: 00:55 Hey y'all. Thanks so much for joining me for Session 130 of the therapy for black girls podcast. Today we're digging into some of the particular challenges that come with being a black woman in the leadership role. For this conversation, I was joined by Yunetta Smith. Yunetta is a licensed professional counselor, mental health service provider and nationally certified counselor in Tennessee. She's the founder of Spring Forth Counseling and a clean beauty advocate working to educate her community on the importance of self care by reducing their toxic footprint. Yuneta strives to change the face of therapy one person at a time. She's a certified EMDR therapist and treat childhood trauma that manifests in adulthood. She's also passionate about de-stigmatizing mental illness and promoting mental wellness within faith based communities. Yunetta and I chatted about how to manage perfectionism and burnout as a leader, concerns related to connecting authentically with others and the importance of creating self care routines. If you hear something that connects with you while listening, please be sure to share with us on social media using the hashtag #TBGInSession. Here's our conversation.

Dr. Joy: 02:16 Thank you so much for joining us today Yunetta,

Yunetta Smith: 02:18 Thank you for having me, Dr Joy.

Dr. Joy: 02:20 Yeah, I'm excited to hear about this. You know, especially as we hear more and more black women kind of climbing the ranks in their corporate spaces and becoming entrepreneurs and just, you know, being active and leading different kinds of organizations. I do think that there are some particular challenges that come with being a black woman in a leadership kind of a position. And I know you work a lot with these types of women in your practice. So I'm happy you were able to join us today for this conversation. So are there particular themes that you have found kind of among your clients who are black women in leadership positions, like particular challenges that you think that they're struggling with?

Yunetta Smith: 03:00 Yeah, absolutely. Like working with black women in leadership positions, I noticed that there was like this trend that was happening with them and some of the language and some of the insecurities and some of the challenges that they experienced. So what I typically have them broken down by is just like the pressures that come with having a platform and being a black woman in leadership and the pain that comes along with that position. And then the process of how it's so difficult to like be transparent in those spaces. So those are kind of like the three points that I'll cover just to kind of clarify what that looks like. Okay, perfect.

Dr. Joy: 03:44 Yeah, so I love that breakdown. So talk to me about the pressures of having a platform.

Yunetta Smith: 03:49 So the pressures are having the platform mainly are associated with just the increased responsibility being a woman, being a black woman in a leadership position. There is this idea of perfection that comes along with it. We all know a lot about, I'm sure like the black tax were we have to put in more effort. We have to almost be flawless with our presentation because we already have a disadvantage just because of being a woman and also being a black woman, you know? So there is an increased responsibility that comes along with that. One thing that I like to communicate to the women that I work with is just understanding you know, what you are responsible for and one of those things is not necessarily completely with how other people view you. So knowing that just because you may be more qualified for the job, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's your job. Leaders. Being careful not to take on too many tasks, not to do things that will enable the people around them and get stuck in a cycle of like codependency where people are coming to them and like completely dependent on them.

Dr. Joy: 05:03 So I want to, I want to stop here Yunetta cause you have already, now we got to take a moment here. Um, because I think that this is something a lot of us struggle with, right? Like this idea that especially like if you're capable, so you're somebody who is being kinda like high achieving and doing a lot of things in your life, right? Like there is this expectation that you can do it easier or like is that going to take you as much time? And so then you wind up just assuming all of these tasks and yes, you may be able to do and get them all done, but at what expense?

Yunetta Smith: 05:37 Yeah, absolutely. And it's like, just because you can doesn't mean that you need to. And I think as a black woman in a leadership position, there's already that pressure that I can't say no. Or, um, there's already so many expectations that are placed on you that it's very difficult to pull back and to delegate

Dr. Joy: 05:58 Okay. So are there other pressures that you've seen kind of associated with people having like these leadership platforms?

Yunetta Smith: 06:05 Yeah, another pressure would be the perception of perfection. So I kinda got into that a little bit previously, but I think perfectionism is, is a tricky touchy subject right now because a lot of people pride themselves on being perfectionist. Like perfectionism is like one of those things that is not okay to have, but it's kind of okay to have because people use the term really loosely, like being a perfectionist or like, Oh, I'm just, I'm OCD. So basically the way they want to describe that is like I have a clean house and I'm organized, which isn't really a great way to describe that because perfectionism can be toxic, right? And what I view as something that's toxic is something that bleeds over into like every area. So not only am I required to have a perfect career, then I'm also required to have like a perfect marriage and I'm required to have perfect children. And that can be very exhausting to try to maintain that image and try to maintain that perfection. [inaudible] and one thing that I noticed too is that oftentimes people who operate from a space of perfectionism or that perfection, they have maybe like a childhood with some neglect or there are some deep rooted feelings of inadequacy and people aren't going to praise you for being not good enough. Well people will like you know, applause you or idolize you for being perfect.

Dr. Joy: 07:34 And that goes back to the cycle that we just talked about, right? Like you have been doing things so perfectly quote unquote throughout your life that people then just continue to expect you to kind of show up in spaces and do all of this great work.

Dr. Joy: 07:48 Yeah, and I would imagine that some of that, if you are not careful, it can really lead to burnout.

Yunetta Smith: 07:53 Yes, yes, absolutely. One of the syndromes. So I like to create these syndromes back to joy and I don't have like any, I haven't done any research in the areas that I know that's like a pop on the hand for us. But it comes up often, like in my work. So one of the syndromes that I like [inaudible] coined ideas would be like the sacrificial lamb syndrome, right? A person that's operating from like a sacrificial lamb syndrome feels like if I take care of myself and someone else will suffer, right? So because I'm the sacrificial lamb, I'm going to be the one like doing this suffering. I'm going to be the one making those sacrifices. I'm going to be the one volunteering myself. I'm not gonna ask anyone for help because I don't want to burden anybody else. So I'm going to be the one that takes, that bears the brunt of that. And oftentimes that's what I find with women, especially black women in leadership positions where they feel like they have to be the ones making all of the sacrifices, whether it be with work, family, you know, just those dynamics.

Dr. Joy: 08:55 That goes back to the conversations we have kind of just generally around like self care and you know, like making sure that you're taking care of yourself so that you can be available both to yourself and other people. But that kinda goes against this thinking of like, okay, I can't take care of myself because then somebody else will suffer.

Yunetta Smith: 09:13 Right, right. Yeah. And are sometimes what happens with that is when you go out of your way to take care of others, that may not have even been the expectation for them or are you, you know, so sometimes in this role there's this resentment that comes up because here I am being the sacrificial lamb and making these sacrifices, but then I don't feel that I have anybody to go to when I need it. And when I do go to people and I need help, that help isn't reciprocated. Or the help that I offer them isn't really appreciated because that's not quite what they needed or wanted. So it's really, it can be really dangerous to operate with this mindset, you know, under this sacrificial lamb mentality. Because, yeah, it can definitely lead to resentment and burnout.

Dr. Joy: 10:03 Yeah. This kind of reminds me of the conversation I had with Dr. Franco on the episode about making friends as an adult. Um, you know, so sometimes we think like, okay, I'm gonna overdo it for this person because this is how I would expect them to show up for me. But she talked about the fact that we get what we asked for in relationships and that what we put out. So, you know, kind of overextending ourselves and kind of going above and beyond in relationships. We think people will reciprocate that to us. And that is not necessarily true, nor doesn't mean that they don't care. Right. But you have not asked them for that. Nor have they as you, for you to be overextending yourselves in the ways we do some time. Absolutely. Yeah. So the next point you talked about was the pain of the position. So can you say more about that?

Yunetta Smith: 10:47 So it can be lonely, you know, it can be lonely operating as somebody in a leadership position. They can feel like they have limited spaces for escape, you know, limited freedom or room to like be human or make a mistake. They can feel like we talked about before, they're caring that their personal issues along with the issues of others simultaneously. So there's a weight that comes along with it. And then there's also this underlying belief that I find often is that I need to suppress to attain success, right? So I have to suppress my feelings. I have to kind of keep my emotions contained in order to be successful because a vulnerable person or a person that is, you know, expressing freely express and feelings is not someone that the world view deems as being someone that can be successful. And then there's also the element of needing to the difficulty. Like, um, we met, you mentioned before as far as like making authentic connections. And one thing I find that with my clients that have challenges with making authentic connections, I asked him a simple question, well arenyou being real and you know, they're usually like, well what do you mean? Yeah, I'm being real. But it's difficult to make connections when you're not being real with yourself or you're not presenting as an authentic version of yourself. You know the phrase like real recognize real and that's there's validity to that, you know?

Dr. Joy: 12:13 And so I'm wondering at, uh, when these people even come into therapy, right? Because some of the things that you're mentioning seem like they would be the antithesis to actually talking to a professional, right? Like, I don't necessarily want people to know that I'm struggling or I can't even be vulnerable with myself. So are there particular themes that might happen for like a black woman in leadership that might lead them to seek therapy?

Yunetta Smith: 12:36 Yeah. Yeah. It's very sad to say, and that's why I think it's so important that we're having this conversation because typically when they come to therapy is when the bottom falls out.

Dr. Joy: 12:46 Yeah.

Yunetta Smith: 12:47 You know when things have become so overwhelming that is starting to interfere with their ability to lead and it starting to attack those areas that they value so much. They're like, I have to do something like it's a last resort instead of being something that you know could be handled, you know, a little sooner when there isn't all that, you know, all these issues happening and things are more challenging and harder to navigate and to, to handle. They usually come when when things are just falling apart.

Dr. Joy: 13:17 Yeah. And do you think it is like a lack of recognizing that things are kind of spiraling? Like what do you think it makes it difficult for them to maybe reach out for the help?

Yunetta Smith: 13:27 I think it is a lack of recognition to some degree, but also I feel like it's, it's just hard to wrap. What I'm finding with the leaders that I work with is sometimes it's hard to reach for them to wrap their brain around the fact that I can't figure this out.

Dr. Joy: 13:42 Yes. Especially when you go back to the perfectionism piece that you mentioned. Right,

Yunetta Smith: 13:46 Right, right. Because most of them are very competent. They're very good at what they do and they're very good at problem solving for others. So when it comes to their individual challenges, it's like, I should be able to figure this out. I should be able to work this out on my own. And there's this idea of weakness that comes with not being able to resolve their own problems. And I like to look at it as when I explain it to them as to like, you know, what could be a reason why it's difficult for them to work through and navigate what it is that they're dealing with. I always mentioned perspective and physician and depending on where your position is going to alter, how your perspective on the situation. So one reference I like to use is like watching a scary movie. I don't like scary movies.

Yunetta Smith: 14:33 I don't, I don't like to be like, I just don't want to use that. Like why? Why be scared to be scared? Why watch something that's gonna make you scared? Well, one thing was scary movies is, you know how it is when you're watching the movie you like, where are you going? Why are you running here? Let's get something behind you. Right? Cause you're on the outside looking in so you have a different viewpoint, you know that, you know, the killer is behind the corner around, you know, behind the shed or whatever. They don't know that because they're in this situation. So a lot of times it's like that with leaders when you're in a situation or when you are anxious or you're emotionally activated, um, your fight, flight or freeze response, you know, gets, gets activated. And when that's activated, the only thing you know how to do is fight, flight, or freeze. Well, when you're in the outside looking in, which is a position of like a therapist, you know, we're not necessarily emotionally attached to, their experienced, we have a different perspective and we can help them navigate what they're going through a little bit better than, than trying to do it on their own.

Dr. Joy: 15:38 Yeah. And I think that that's one of the great tools that we can teach clients as therapists, right? As this perspective taking. So initially when they come to us and we are kind of taking a perspective on their lives, but eventually we're teaching them like how can you do this for yourself? Like if you are watching your life play out in a movie, things might, you recognize that you maybe can't when you're like in the movie and you're the main character. Yeah. So I want to go back to you when Yunetta about kind of leadership being really lonely because I know we see more and more research coming out about like loneliness being an epidemic and how that impacts our mental health. And I think that you're right, especially in some circles where you might be, if not the only, maybe one of few black women, like in a leadership position, I think it would be really hard to figure out where support might be able to come from. So what are your thoughts of, what are some suggestions or things that you've worked with on your clients to kind of figure out where support might be able to come from for them? Yeah, I think it's really important to find and sometimes even create safe spaces where you can be transparent.

Yunetta Smith: 16:46 You know, transparency is difficult a lot with my clients. What I work with is kind of helping them to understand like what their insecurities are and how those insecurities can get in the way of them being able to show up as their most authentic self. But understanding that, you know, vulnerability is how we connect. You know, when you view vulnerability as a weakness, it cause you not to want to be vulnerable. But if you understand that there is power in your vulnerability and that vulnerability is that right piece that's necessary for you to make those connections, then it's a lot easier too. Start to create safe spaces. You know,

Dr. Joy: 17:27 I think it's great, like if you can get to that place, but some of the stuff that you've already talked about in terms of like the perfectionism and like, okay, I do good at solving other people's problems. I don't necessarily really think I have any. I think those things would make it difficult to be really transparent. So how do you even bag them up to get to a space of like being able to be transparent in like a situation with a stranger?

Yunetta Smith: 17:51 I think they're happy. Sometimes it's the catalyst for that to happen. [inaudible] um, because there is an element of confidentiality that's present, you know, knowing that if I share this with you, then you bylaw can't share it with anybody else. You know what I mean? So that provides a sense of safety and then finding safe spaces or even sometimes creating a safe spaces. Like there's a local group here in my town where a lady has created a space for people to come and share and be, it's transparent and they sign NDAs, you know? So that may offer some sense of like, you know, comfort knowing that, you know, you have sign something that states that you won't share anything that we, you know, that we communicate in this space. So I think it's important to just not jump all into it. Like, okay, I need to be transparent and then I'm just, you know, share my business and just sharing everything and word vomitting on everyone. But I think it's just really taking your time too, like test the waters to just open up a little bit with someone, like listen to them, like be authentic and seeing where it goes. I know a lot of leaders struggle with transparency because they've been burned [inaudible] you know, and, or their trust has been violated. But I think it's important to understand that like you have to start somewhere and you have to start slow and that, you know, allowing time and space.

Dr. Joy: 19:28 Kind of be your teachers right. Like you said, start with sharing a little bit about yourself and then seeing how people react or you know, can you trust them, is it safe to share what you shared and then you gradually continue sharing once you can, once you know that you can trust the space.

Yunetta Smith: 19:44 Yes, yes, absolutely.

Dr. Joy: 19:46 Yeah, absolutely. And that's again where, why therapy I think is a great way to like test it. Right? Like he said, you know, legally we are required to, you know, kind of keep our mouth shut about what she had in therapy. But I think it is also just a great way of you practicing being authentic with another human being and kind of seeing what happens with that information.

Yunetta Smith: 20:06 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. There's another little, yeah term that I have and is called post transparency syndrome. So this is like when you feel vulnerable and you feel like an intense wave of anxiety and regret after you've been transparent and you like want to completely crawl under a rock and you want to undo everything you did and everything you said showing like how you really feel or where you really are. And I think what happens with that is when you're transparent, individuals feel like they don't give themselves credit for the bravery that necessary to be transparent. So they walk away from the situation like, man, I, I'll never do that again. Instead of looking at it like, wow, that was really brave of me to like show up, you know, and open myself up and be vulnerable and connect.

Dr. Joy: 20:57 Yeah. Cause I think again, you know, especially with this kind of a population, right? When you're somebody who is a leader, sometimes things come to you really easily. And so you don't always give yourself credit for what may seem like, Oh, that was just a little thing. But it really can be a big thing in terms of like your becoming more emotionally available in a more emotionally healthy

Yunetta Smith: 21:19 Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Joy: 21:21 So I'm guessing that a part of what also makes it really difficult to be transparent and you know, makes it difficult to have authentic connections is if you have not really kind of done your own work and working through your own insecurities. So can you say more about like insecurities and leadership?

Yunetta Smith: 21:37 Yes. Yes, insecurities are huge, right? And all of us have insecurities, okay, let's just put that out there. And if somebody says they don't have an insecurity, that basically means that their insecurity as you know, and that they have insecurity. So, um, but one thing is about insecurities is insecurities can create like, uh, bridge or barrier between you being like a perfect or an excellent leader. And I'll break down like the difference between a perfect leader and an excellent leader, right? So when you're a leader and you're striving for perfection, then you have this unrealistic pressure. Um, perfection is subjective. So it's going to be based on that individual's experience and their opinion. You can't please everybody, right? And everybody has an opinion. So when you are operating from a place of perfection, your meter is constantly going to be wavering, right? On a good day, people may like what you're doing and they may think you're awesome.

Yunetta Smith: 22:39 And then on the other day, then they're gonna think, you know, you're horrible and what you're doing is irrelevant and is not trending or whatever the case may be. So perfection is really not attainable. But when you strive to be like an excellent leader, then you're striving to operate from the best of your ability. Like this is going to be aligned with your core beliefs. You're going to be focused on showing up like as the best version of you and this is going to be not considering your individual life experience, your resources in your present circumstances. But one thing I like to look at in terms of insecurities is that your insecurities come to offer you insight. So insecurities, I kind of like a gift so instead of trying to cover them, it's good for us to like be curious about and like where is this insecurity coming from? I would is this insecurity coming to like show me and knowing that sometimes those insecurities are how we are able to like make connections.

Dr. Joy: 23:41 So looking at it more as information as opposed to anything that we need judge. Right, right. Yeah. Look, I think it can be difficult, right? Because when you hear the word insecurities, I think most people kind of, there's a negative connotation there, right? It's something that I don't necessarily like about myself or something that I don't feel as good about, but it is just information because we are all human. Yeah. So something that we haven't touched on, Yunetta that I would love to hear your thoughts about. You know, cause I think that there is like traditional leadership, right? But I think now with the advance of technology and social media like leadership is not just in your community or in your organization. Like there is also I think leadership that comes along with sharing things on social media. Right? So people have like huge platforms but you weren't there at the Will to be Well conversation. We had a conversation about you know like just feeling exposed when you have a social media platform and like worried about like what kind of feedback you're going to get. I'm wondering if that's something that has come up with your clients as well.

Yunetta Smith: 24:44 Yes, it does come up pretty much now being a leader is really connected to your ability to be visible and with social media being here, things are like visible times, like a thousand. Right? Because, you know, whereas before say something came out or there was some information that you made feel shame or regret about, you know, it can kind of be contained into this limited space. But now if something comes out, like everyone has access to you and everyone has access to your information, that's a lot of pressure. You know, there's a lot of pressure that comes along with that. So I think it is important to look at that or leadership as well.

Dr. Joy: 25:31 Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned this idea of being visibility because that's something we talk about a lot as therapists, right? That you know, again, with the advent of more technology, clients are going to Instagram and Facebook and Twitter to like find therapists or to talk to at least research you. And there's the only way they're going to find you is if you are visible. I mean, you know, so a lot of therapists have been struggling with like how do I be become more visible on social media and is that an okay thing to do and what kinds of things should I share? So I do think it is, it is a conversation that we're going to be continuing to have as technology continues to grow.

Yunetta Smith: 26:09 Yeah. And I think it's important to, to, to know that just because you're a leader and just because you are visible doesn't mean you always have to be visible. You know? And I think it's important to safeguard your, you know, the things that you don't want. Yeah. We want to be vulnerable, but we also want to be wise and uh, what we share and who we allow into those spaces. And you know, creating safe spaces that don't have to always be connected to social media or having those places of that you can go to that everyone doesn't have access to. Because as a leader, people already have so much access to you and your life and they can cause you to feel like, you know, I have to, that's connected to the belief that you have to be perfect because people are always watching. They're always looking. So sometimes being very intentional about creating those spaces within your, within your life and within your social media as well. You know, you want to be vulnerable so that you can connect, but then you also want to be wise so that that doesn't get tainted. Um, and, and so that you're not overexposed.

Dr. Joy: 27:21 Yeah. So I would imagine, you know, that, that a large part of your work with your clients struggling with these kinds of things is looking at their self care and how do they, you know, do a better job of, you know, setting better boundaries and those kinds of things. What are some of the things that you typically find yourself recommending to your clients to really kind of break down some of that perfectionism and the need to kind of be everywhere and you know, kind of always be doing the things.

Yunetta Smith: 27:48 Yeah. So of course, first and foremost is therapy, right? So they're already there. But there is so much beauty in being able to sit in a space with somebody who doesn't need anything from you, right? As a leader, when people are constantly pulling from you and people expecting something from you, it's good to have those spaces. And it doesn't always have to be within the therapeutic setting. But it can be like with you know, family members or just people who can see you for you. They know who you are and they're not requesting anything of you. They don't need anything from you, but they just want to enjoy that time and space with you. I think it's important that leaders have an escape. And when I say escape, I'm not saying like you're working for a vacation. I love vacations. Vacations are awesome, but we [inaudible] need to have a way to have a vacation every day. So whether it'd be like a space in your home or whether it be something that you do outside of the work setting. I find a lot of leaders, they say, you know what? I love my job and I enjoy work so much that that's my escape. Work can't be your escape. You know, having something that you have that you do, whether it be, you know, like painting or exercise or walking, like having something that you do that gets you away from your title, gets you away from your role, get you away from the responsibility and allows you to have space to like be a human just being and not be a human that's always doing.

Dr. Joy: 29:19 I think kind of going back to your first point about meeting with a therapist or somebody who doesn't need anything from you, I would guess that that's a reason why a lot of people really feel uncomfortable with therapy is because they have kind of painted this narrative of themselves that they are the one who does, you know, that's the value they bring to relationships. And so what kind of relationship could I even possibly be in where they don't need something from me? [inaudible].

Yunetta Smith: 29:46 Yeah, that's a great point. Cause it's uncomfortable, you know, because you're operating outside of a role that you're, you're used to operating in. Like I have it when I'm in here doing everything for everybody. But if I have to be the one that needs help or I have to be the vulnerable person, that can be very uncomfortable. And, and then it causes you to, to have to check your ego, you know, and the ideas that you set up for yourself of what you are supposed to do and how you're supposed to show up like in the world and with others, you know, so it can cause you to check like how do you view people that are quote unquote subordinate to you? Do you view them as being weaker? You know, and is that why it's difficult for you to assume that position of help? So it really causes you to really look at both sides of the spectrum. And it can also give you space to have more empathy for others because you're now in a position that you traditionally like see other people in

Dr. Joy: 30:45 great points, you know? So are there some resources like books, podcasts, TV shows, anything that you kind of find yourself recommending over and over to your clients?

Yunetta Smith: 30:55 One of the new books that I'm reading now is Restored at the Root. It's by Bishop Joseph Walker. It's really talking about like getting to the root of your problems and issues and kind of what presents, you know, problems for you and really kind of getting to the root of like these dysfunctional cycles that you find yourself in. That's a good one. I love auguring Brenee Brown's work on vulnerability. She has a book called Dare to lead. That's really good. The book called ordering your private world. That one is a really good book. So I love Stephen Burdick. Um, I like a lot of 'em. I listened to a lot of preachers and stuff. He has a podcast that's amazing and it's just his messages. And of course, like Sarah Jakes, I listened to a lot of her stuff too. And self-compassion. I know that's a resource that's been mentioned often, but that book is amazing. Really helping you to get out of your head and helping you to offer yourself compassion is that of harsh critiques and to get out of that perfectionist mentality. I often ask my clients a lot like what did you know? Maybe that younger version of you need in that space and situation and that helps them to kind of be more tender and compassionate with themselves when they find themselves being stuck.

Dr. Joy: 32:14 Nice. Well those are great resources so of course we will definitely include those in the show notes and where can we find you? You net a, what is your website for your practice as well as any social media handles you want to share

Yunetta Smith: 32:25 For my practice, it's spring forthcounseling.org and I'm also on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram as Spring Forth Counseling as well.

Dr. Joy: 32:35 Perfect. Well thank you so much for sharing with us today [inaudible] I really appreciate it.

Yunetta Smith: 32:39 Thank you so much for having me. This was a joy to talk to you, not pun intended

Dr. Joy: 32:49 I'm glad you Netta was able to share her expertise with us today to find out more information about her in her practice or the resources that she shared. Be sure to check out our show notes@therapyforblackgirls.com slash session one 30 please remember to share this episode with two people in your circle, and don't forget to share your takeaways with us, either on Twitter or in your IG stories using the hashtag #TBGInSession. Remember that if you're searching for a therapist in your area, be sure to check out our therapists directory at therapyforblackgirls.com/directory and if you want to continue digging into this topic and meet some other sisters in your area, come on over and join us in the yellow couch collective where we take a deeper dive into the topics from the podcast and just about everything else you can join us at therapyforblackgirls.com/YCC. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to Ken's. He knew in this conversation with you all real soon. Take care.